5 ms·

The forbidden railway: Vienna – Pyongyang (2008)

155 points by pantalaimon 11y ago

sbose78 11y ago
Hi, I can only see a few lines in the post. Could you please help me with the significance?
- Flockster 11y ago
  There is a link to the 'detailed travelogue' http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.de/2008/04/how-everything-began.html http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.de/2008/04/how-everything-b...
guard-of-terra 11y ago
http://eurasia2005.blogspot.ru/ http://eurasia2005.blogspot.ru/ - wanted to check another blog by same author Unfortunately, all images here have bit rotten.
- tobik 11y ago
  Luckily it was archived with at least some of the images: https://web.archive.org/web/20150707005712/http://eurasia2005.blogspot.de/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150707005712/http://eurasia200...
ersii 11y ago
Previous discussions/HN links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10875434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10875434 (4 points, 41 days ago, 2 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2155794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2155794 (124 points, 1847 days ago, 19 comments)
staticautomatic 11y ago
$100 says the guy they video taped stamping their passports and giving them visas was executed.
TacoWednesdays 11y ago
This was a great post when I read it last. I really wish the author would repost the pictures or post them to a service that they eventually don't disappear from.
yequalsx 11y ago
Is it ever immoral to visit a country as a tourist? If North Korea does not fall into this category what country does? I can't imagine being excited about visiting Phnom Penh during the Khemer Rouge killing field days. Is visiting Pyongyang acceptable when conditions in North Korea are so deplorable? Why contribute to propping up such an evil regime?
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  It is not immoral or unethical to visit North Korea. You have to realize that autocratic regimes thrive in isolation. The most effective tactic they have to remain in power is to keep the population ignorant of everything else around them. By visiting the country you may put a small amount of money in the regime's pockets, but you're doing the far nobler duty of bringing the outside world to the North Koreans. Also spending money in North Korea is likely to put more money in the locals' pockets than in the regime's.
- nitrogen 11y ago
  I've never visited any such countries, but the argument could be made that every tiny bit of foreign exposure the residents get helps to counteract the local propaganda, even in tightly controlled settings like Pyongyang.
  - yequalsx 11y ago
    Yes, one can make that argument. Is there ever a situation in which it is immoral to visit a country and help its regime by spending money there? For me I think North Korea qualifies.
    - treve 11y ago
      Then the answer to your question is yes. It it sometimes immoral to some people, and you are one of them.
    - a3n 11y ago
      It's complicated. Yes, tourism brings money and legitimacy. However, the citizens of every country are our brothers and sisters, and the more we get to know and understand each other the better. Consider, "You're not allowed to know and talk to this person." Wait, what?
willscott 11y ago
Some contextual notes on how this compares to today: * American citizens have been denied access to anything except specially chartered train cars since 2013. * Train service runs daily between Pyongyang and the Chinese border at Dandong. It takes much of a day to travel to the borer. * Train service from Rason up through Tumangang runs twice each month, and a car from that train will hook up with the next trans-Siberian train outside of Vladivostok and continue to Moscow. * It shouldn't be expected that the same train runs from Pyongyang to rason as onwards to Russia. The state of the tracks between rason and Pyongyang have apparently deteriorated (largely in terms of intermittent power) such that it can take several days to make the trip down the east coast. * Russians in the Pyongyang embassy regularly book train passage between the city and the Russian border. * Standard visas issued by DPRK continue to list tumangang as a valid port of entry.
- fooyc 11y ago
  Do they really have a specific rule for American citizens ?
peterburkimsher 11y ago
I visited North Korea on a tour in 2010. Back then, I had to leave my mobile phone in China, and the Google Maps of North Korea was totally blank. The most important things for me - Jesus and technology - are illegal in North Korea. It was a fascinating experience! What surprised me most is that it is a "country", with working trains and postal service and businesses. The government just has totally different priorities to me. I'd recommend North Korea for a honeymoon. There's no choice of hotels or restaurants, because you have to go to the government-approved ones. Other people can't contact you, so there's no disturbances. It was actually very relaxing! On another note, I took the Trans-Siberian train across Russia in 2009, and narrowly avoided being arrested when trying to see if a North Korean logging camp is still active (I guess it is). Do you think it's safe to write up that experience now?

155 points by pantalaimon 11y ago

sbose78 11y ago

Hi, I can only see a few lines in the post. Could you please help me with the significance?

Flockster 11y ago
There is a link to the 'detailed travelogue' http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.de/2008/04/how-everything-began.html http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.de/2008/04/how-everything-b...

guard-of-terra 11y ago

http://eurasia2005.blogspot.ru/ http://eurasia2005.blogspot.ru/ - wanted to check another blog by same author Unfortunately, all images here have bit rotten.

tobik 11y ago
Luckily it was archived with at least some of the images: https://web.archive.org/web/20150707005712/http://eurasia2005.blogspot.de/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150707005712/http://eurasia200...

ersii 11y ago

Previous discussions/HN links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10875434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10875434 (4 points, 41 days ago, 2 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2155794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2155794 (124 points, 1847 days ago, 19 comments)

staticautomatic 11y ago

$100 says the guy they video taped stamping their passports and giving them visas was executed.

TacoWednesdays 11y ago

This was a great post when I read it last. I really wish the author would repost the pictures or post them to a service that they eventually don't disappear from.

yequalsx 11y ago

Is it ever immoral to visit a country as a tourist? If North Korea does not fall into this category what country does? I can't imagine being excited about visiting Phnom Penh during the Khemer Rouge killing field days. Is visiting Pyongyang acceptable when conditions in North Korea are so deplorable? Why contribute to propping up such an evil regime?

vinceguidry 11y ago
It is not immoral or unethical to visit North Korea. You have to realize that autocratic regimes thrive in isolation. The most effective tactic they have to remain in power is to keep the population ignorant of everything else around them. By visiting the country you may put a small amount of money in the regime's pockets, but you're doing the far nobler duty of bringing the outside world to the North Koreans. Also spending money in North Korea is likely to put more money in the locals' pockets than in the regime's.
nitrogen 11y ago
I've never visited any such countries, but the argument could be made that every tiny bit of foreign exposure the residents get helps to counteract the local propaganda, even in tightly controlled settings like Pyongyang.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  Yes, one can make that argument. Is there ever a situation in which it is immoral to visit a country and help its regime by spending money there? For me I think North Korea qualifies.
  - treve 11y ago
    Then the answer to your question is yes. It it sometimes immoral to some people, and you are one of them.
  - a3n 11y ago
    It's complicated. Yes, tourism brings money and legitimacy. However, the citizens of every country are our brothers and sisters, and the more we get to know and understand each other the better. Consider, "You're not allowed to know and talk to this person." Wait, what?

willscott 11y ago

Some contextual notes on how this compares to today: * American citizens have been denied access to anything except specially chartered train cars since 2013. * Train service runs daily between Pyongyang and the Chinese border at Dandong. It takes much of a day to travel to the borer. * Train service from Rason up through Tumangang runs twice each month, and a car from that train will hook up with the next trans-Siberian train outside of Vladivostok and continue to Moscow. * It shouldn't be expected that the same train runs from Pyongyang to rason as onwards to Russia. The state of the tracks between rason and Pyongyang have apparently deteriorated (largely in terms of intermittent power) such that it can take several days to make the trip down the east coast. * Russians in the Pyongyang embassy regularly book train passage between the city and the Russian border. * Standard visas issued by DPRK continue to list tumangang as a valid port of entry.

fooyc 11y ago
Do they really have a specific rule for American citizens ?

peterburkimsher 11y ago

I visited North Korea on a tour in 2010. Back then, I had to leave my mobile phone in China, and the Google Maps of North Korea was totally blank. The most important things for me - Jesus and technology - are illegal in North Korea. It was a fascinating experience! What surprised me most is that it is a "country", with working trains and postal service and businesses. The government just has totally different priorities to me. I'd recommend North Korea for a honeymoon. There's no choice of hotels or restaurants, because you have to go to the government-approved ones. Other people can't contact you, so there's no disturbances. It was actually very relaxing! On another note, I took the Trans-Siberian train across Russia in 2009, and narrowly avoided being arrested when trying to see if a North Korean logging camp is still active (I guess it is). Do you think it's safe to write up that experience now?