10 ms·

When the Hospital Fires the Bullet

65 points by Anthony-G 11y ago

pmorici 11y ago
Since when is it acceptable to shoot an unarmed person? There isn't even any doubt in this case as to whether or not he had a weapon.
- nordsieck 11y ago
  The most common times are when there is a size or numbers disadvantage, but all it takes is a reasonable fear of imminent grave bodily harm or death. Those are the rules for private citizens (the details vary from state to state). Official security probably has more latitude to take action because they are responsible for the safety of everyone in the area.
  - huac 11y ago
    > Official security probably has more latitude to take action because they are responsible for the safety of everyone in the area. probably, but they should have less latitude because of their training in other, non-violent methods to remove the threat. negotiation can help defuse most situations better than a taser or gunshot would. (was this sarcastic? or just hopeful?)
    - Kalium 11y ago
      Just hopeful, I'm afraid. It's easy to assume from the distance of many miles and a computer screen that every single situation can be addressed safely and easily by a soft word or three. Abstractly, that may be true, if you free yourself of certain constraints imposed by reality. For one, you have to assume that every single person in every single situation is open to negotiation. Second, you have to assume that nuanced and complex communication of the sort that enables negotiation is readily possible. Third, you have to assume that entering into negotiation will remove any threat the subject may pose to other people nearby. Fourth, you have to assume that trained negotiators arrive sufficiently fast for their magic stop-all-threats-to-everyone powers to engage in time. In reality, some or all of these can fail. I read about an incident in my city in the past few months where a mentally ill man was reported to police as wandering the streets, carrying a chain. The police arrived. An officer approached the man, attempting to speak with him. She wanted to find out if anything was wrong and see if there was a problem that needed addressing. He proceeded to beat her with the aforementioned chain. If memory serves, the situation was resolved when the armed, actively violent, mentally ill man was shot dead. And this is a scenario where presumably everyone speaks English! Where in there was she supposed to negotiate with him to solve all the problems at hand? What non-violent methods do you expect to bring a rapid halt to someone actively beating a police officer with a weapon that will be remotely as fast as lethal force? What happens if you have no shared languages, someone deep in the grips of hallucinations, and actively shooting people nearby? Do you expect negotiating police to defuse that problem by negotiating with someone incapable of recognizing them as people who want to negotiate?
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - DanBC 11y ago
        > It's easy to assume from the distance of many miles and a computer screen that every single situation can be addressed safely and easily by a soft word or three. It's easy to assume for me because I've seen the vast amounts of work currently happening around "behaviour seen as challenging" in people with mental illness or learning disability[1] or brain injury. Here shooting people is absolutely not possible in the vast majority of cases of behaviour seen as challenging. Tasering people is also absolutely not acceptable. Rapid tranquillisation is common, but not acceptable because of the amount of restraint needed immediately prior to the injection. Various methods of restraint are common, but are not acceptable because of the risk of injury or death. A lot of money is being spent on better training on de-escalation, diversion, prevention, etc. It's fucking baffling to me that people think it's okay to kill someone in distress just because the people doing the shooting are so lacking in skills that they have no other option. To me it's clearly a failure of everyone involved (and the departments they work for). In your example with the chain: you seem to think this is a situation where a violent response is undeniably the right thing. I see that and I think how fucking clueless the woman was, and how fucking clueless the people who shot the man were. There are plenty of Youtube videos comparing UK and US police responses to these situations. [1] UK definition.
        Kalium 11y ago
        In the scenario I described, what do you think that the right non-violent solution was? I should also add that the PD had no way to know ahead of time that they were responding to a situation with a victim of mental illness in a time of distress who would exhibit behavior seen as challenging. Incidentally, this was not a situation where there were a half-dozen officers on hand to swarm the guy. Should officers always move in groups of six or more, so that any sudden violence can be handled with grappling? Seems expensive, at the very least. How do you propose that a single officer being actively beaten about the head with a chain de-escalate the situation? I'm deeply curious how you think that could be reasonably accomplished. Maybe saying please? What would an officer in the UK do in the situation I described when being actively beat about the head with a chain? How would it be totally different and reliably yield an ideal outcome? Another detail of relevance: the incident did not provide the officer with an opportunity to speak to the victim of mental illness in a time of distress. The victim attacked immediately upon the officer exiting her vehicle. If any and all forms of violence are ruled out, with de-escalation and negotiation being the order of the day, how should this officer have reacted to being beaten with a chain? What peaceful, non-violent, resolution skills are available to someone subject to such immediate violence?
    - ipsin 11y ago
      When your officers carry guns, there's an implicit duty to never lose control of that weapon in a situation, and that necessitates a certain distance, often "enforced" with a gun. You don't want to end up grappling with someone who might actually be much better at it.
  - pmorici 11y ago
    Maybe, and in this case it was _two_ security officers vs one patient so they can't even claim they were at a numerical disadvantage.
- tomjen3 11y ago
  I am 5'3. A large, tall person could easily completely overpower me. If he came rushing at me I would have to shoot him to defend myself.
  - rahimnathwani 11y ago
    I am also 5'3. I don't carry a gun, so I never 'have to' shoot anyone. The article described a situation in which two people with police training used a taser and a gun to restrain a naked man. It was two against one. Did they really need the taser? Even if they did, did they really need to shoot him with a gun, too?
  - slantedview 11y ago
    If you're a hospital worker, then you deal with the individual in the story exactly as the other hospital workers did before the police arrived, as they always do, and nobody gets killed. If you give people guns, empower them to use them, and protect them from the legal ramifications, then stories like this are the obvious outcome.
- davak 11y ago
  Imagine you are in a small hospital room and unable to get out. A 300 pound 6'2 dude is yelling that he's going to kill you. His brain is so scrambled that the tazor did nothing. You are backed into a corner and he's walking toward you.
  - Zigurd 11y ago
    In an age where such places have surveillance video you would think we don't need hypothetical scenarios. We'd have video of someone taking a solid hit from a Tazer and continuing an attack. But let's try this hypothetical: Imagine you are in a country without armed private security and only a subset of police are armed. Where are all the people who've been killed by 300 lbs crazed people?
    - tamana 11y ago
      They are in the imagination of armed officers, which is all the the law requires :-(
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      It's not that hard to find instances of crazed people committing murder or other serious acts of violence. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356115/Alabama-man-murdered-three-friends-meth-fueled-killing-spree-sexually-assaulted-witness-hunt-roadkill-deer.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356115/Alabama-man-... http://mtstandard.com/crime-and-courts/missoula-motel-murder-suspect-says-meth-fueled-attacks-accomplice-provides/article_8e558f4d-9aa3-5336-acc8-3b510fdaf9ae.html http://mtstandard.com/crime-and-courts/missoula-motel-murder... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/arizona-man-meth-set-bed-fire-murder-panic-article-1.2493720 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/arizona-man-meth-se... http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/04/fort_payne_man_now_charged_wit.html http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/04/fort_pay... http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/compensation-for-mother-of-woman-murdered-by-crazed-hammerwielding-motherinlaw-20160204-gmmcz4.html http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/compensation-for-mother-of... http://somd.com/news/headlines/2016/20355.php http://somd.com/news/headlines/2016/20355.php European nations will likely have fewer such problems than we do - our population is much more violent. As Scott Alexander once quipped, "Who'd have thought populating half a country with the descendants of a group of people called "Border Reavers" would cause so much trouble?" https://twitter.com/slatestarcodex/status/672540086932779009 https://twitter.com/slatestarcodex/status/672540086932779009 I'm not trying to say that the police were justified in this incident - note that I'm a huge critic of American policing. I'm merely pointing out that the threat is quite real.
- EliRivers 11y ago
  It's not about whether the other guy is armed or not. While I can't speak for other jurisdictions, in the UK it's about what's reasonable in the circumstances (with allowance made for the fact that someone in that situation does not have the time to make a full objective assessment of the situation). Sure, if the person attacking me is unarmed and I'm bigger, stronger, wearing armour and carrying a baton, shooting them might be considered unreasonable (but might be considered reasonable). If I'm in fear of my life and all I have is a handgun, shooting them is very reasonable. Of course, in the UK, the next question from the police would be "What's with the handgun?" :) All that said, in the case of Alan Pean in the article, I could well believe that the two off-duty police officers moonlighting as security guards were basically incompetent amateurs with weaponry, believing their own hype.
- BurningFrog 11y ago
  Fists and shoes are deadly weapons. They're far deadlier than movies have let you think. Very few people are actually unarmed.
jakobegger 11y ago
Over the years I've observed that a certain kind of people goes to work in law enforcement or security. They are often a bit aggressive, they seem to have this feeling of superiority, and they enjoy positions of authority. It's rarely the calm, humble, balanced types that work in those fields. I think this is extremely dangerous. Has anybody else made this observation? Is there anything that could be done to change this?
- venomsnake 11y ago
  Warrior Cop - Radley Balko is interesting read. There was observation from LAPD official that created the some of the first SWAT teams that the people most enthusiastic about being in SWAT most often are the one you really don't want there. I guess it gets even worse in the private sector - you may get a person without the needed background or training to resolve the situation in the optimal way.
- sebcat 11y ago
  The good security guys don't work a hospital security job. As with everything else, you get what you pay for. The calm, humble, balanced types go for greener pastures.
  - davak 11y ago
    Complete garbage. Source -- My personal everyday experience.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - DennisP 11y ago
    The shooters were police officers, not regular hospital security. NPR did a piece on this case last night. They emphasized that there are standard procedures for dealing with mentally unstable patients in a hospital setting, and the cops weren't trained in those procedures. They ended up escalating the situation. They also interviewed a hospital security guard, who said the shooting was ridiculous. He said "We don't carry guns. We get hit all the time. We just deal with it." That wasn't the police approach. One got hit, so they responded like they would on the street and deployed tasers, then lethal force, and followed up with felony charges. Another issue was that the family asked for a mental health evaluation of the patient. Standard procedure is to immediately provide that upon request. Instead the hospital ignored it. Had they done a proper evaluation, the patient would have been moved to an area where they used regular security instead of police. As of now the hospital is at risk of losing federal funding, if it doesn't reform its policies to the satisfaction of federal investigators, including better training for the cops and further restriction of their areas of operation.
davak 11y ago
Working in hospitals over the last ten years, I have noticed an increase in how violent patients are. I believe the increasing use of synthetic rec drugs and the failing mental health system is to blame. Previously many of these dangerous cases would be locked up until they were safe. Now, everybody just tries to treat them as an outpatient. That with the easy access to guns makes hospitals very dangerous places these days.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  I caught pneumonia when I visited NYC a few years ago and was brought by ambulance to a hospital in Brooklyn. Some of the things I heard in the emergency room were shocking compared to what I'd experienced in emergency rooms before (I'm from the UK). The most surprising thing to me was how many of the patients were verbally abusive to the nurses. Perhaps these people were mentally unstable, I don't know, but I never expected to hear any patients attacking the people that were there to help them.
  - Zelphyr 11y ago
    Nurses generally get treated terribly compared to doctors and others in the profession, despite the fact they are often the ones who are actually taking care of you (doctors diagnose, nurses treat). I guess it's because they're considered lower in the hierarchy simply because doctors went to school longer.
    - tamana 11y ago
      In the case parent described, it's just because nurses actually interact with patients, but doctors don't.
JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Simple answer: it was the night shift.
smoyer 11y ago
I don't know whether anyone else is seeing it but the subject's eyes appear to move when I use the scroll wheel on my mouse. I'm using the current Firefox Developer's Edition. It could be some effect of my graphics hardware, monitor or even the refresh rate versus the distance being scrolled but the effect is really creepy!
- AI_Overlord 11y ago
  If I were you I'd be careful on which hospital to choose in case you need care for delusions... :)
  - smoyer 11y ago
    If I weren't being so lazy on a sunny Saturday, I'd be inclined to see whether my screen-casting software would capture it. Of course, then I'd be accused of tampering with it! When my wife gets home I'll ask her if she sees it too.
tamana 11y ago
The victim survived, but is now being persecuted by the government prosecution complex, including being charged with a crime for rushing himself to the hospital for treatment. I hope he finds a strong lawyer who can find justice and win a large settlement from the Rambo cops.
- consto 11y ago
  After reading the article, the reckless driving charge is the only one I agree with.
- KMag 11y ago
  Lucky for him, department guidelines only allow officers to shoot unarmed naked people of mixed or indeterminate race a single time, even if the officers yell "stop resisting" and/or "he's coming right for us" [0] first. They narrowly missed his heart, but had he been a single minority race, they could have kept shooting as long as they didn't stop to reload. [0] http://southpark.cc.com/clips/149674/its-coming-right-for-us http://southpark.cc.com/clips/149674/its-coming-right-for-us
k-mcgrady 11y ago
So we have a person clearly very ill and he can get seen more quickly by armed police officers than a medical professional who can actually help the situation? If he was in a room alone why, instead of sending in armed men, didn't they lock the door, get a doctor and some sedatives and then get security to restrain him while they actually gave him the care he came to the hospital for? I'm absolutely blown away that this could happen.
nommm-nommm 11y ago
>While St. Joseph does have a psychiatric ward, Mr. Pean was never seen by a psychiatrist Why does this happen? I know someone who showed up to the ER after crashing his car during a delusional manic episode. His wife showed up and said he has a history of bipolar disorder and needs a psychiatric evaluation. The nurse literally laughed at her!
- GoodOldNe 11y ago
  This happens because psychiatric units will not take patients who are not "medically cleared". Meaning that, if a patient has any evidence of injury or medical illness (or they think that the symptoms may be caused by something physiologic that has gone wrong -- leaving aside the fact that mental illness is physiologic at some level, you know what I mean) the psychiatric units want nothing to do with them.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    They were releasing him from the ER and he was already medically cleared.
chris_wot 11y ago
Are police officers allowed to moonlight as security guards?!?
- 0xcde4c3db 11y ago
  Incredibly, in many places, yes. Not only that; some cities allow them to do so in uniform.
- msellout 11y ago
  Police often supplement their income with odd jobs. I once worked with a police detective who also worked as a sysadmin.
- sp332 11y ago
  Why on earth not?
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    Conflict of interest.
    - nommm-nommm 11y ago
      Whats the conflict of interest?
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        Think about it for a second. You can hire cops, doesn't matter what the cost. Oh, hi officer, you work for me as a security officer in your down time. Hey, if you still want that work, why don't we just agree to ignore that traffic infringement? That customer posting a bad review of my restaurant. He's acting like he's been on the wacky tabacky, nudge nudge... Best get him out of here to the police station, and whilst you're about it those comments are clearly drug affected. Just clear them. Incidentally, about that bonus for working extra hours - I put that in your account last night. Good work officer! edit: my new iPad didn't pick up the fact I wrote restaraunt. Aside from being a great typo to say aloud, wtf?
tsunamifury 11y ago
My uncle died in 2009 in a room alone, straight jacketed. He suffered a cardiac arrest likely cause by terror at a country hospital in Wisconsin. He had committed himself and was dead within 24 hours. It wasn't the first time the hospital has killed a patient using the same technique. In the subsequent years I have spent a lot of time thinking about why he died and the indifference of those around him when he was most vulnerable. Law enforcement refused to investigate mostly on the grounds that he was insane and there was nothing anyone could do. He had three kids and a wife who was a social worker. She was later fired as the state of Wisconsin decided social services where no longer a priority. I've come to the conclusion that most of us would rather ignore the problem of mental illness rather than solve it. It's more convenient to kill the ill than treat them and society simply looks the other way. I am given hope that his son is now a leading neuroscience Ph.D. Candidate at UC Davis. He has vowed to not let his father's death be in vain.
- cmurf 11y ago
  This is mainly a cultural and political problem. Hospitals used to overwhelmingly be non-profit. Now they are for profit. There's less and less funding available for what is a public health concern that enrich private for profit mental health facilities.
- specialist 11y ago
  I'm sorry for your loss. FWIW, I anticipate (hope) that addressing the needs of the mentally ill will be the next big civil rights movement, at least in the USA. Mostly due to increased awareness, for better or worse, thru social mediums. Just like with homosexuality before, I had no empathy because I couldn't relate. But then when you discover that its your friend, your family, your loved ones who is affected, I learned "Oh, they're just people, just like me." And then someone shares their story, like you just did, and I learn "Oh, it's not just me and mine." So I thank you for sharing. All the best.
Anthony-G 11y ago
For those who found this story to be interesting, I’d recommend listening to the associated This American Life episode. [1] It provides an insight into the internal experiences of somebody suffering from delusions. In his interview, Alan Pean tells a vividly detailed account of how he experienced the manic episode. He recalled how, at times, he would be able to rationalise the delusional thoughts away but they came so quickly, it was difficult to stay rational as the delusions had their own internal coherence. One memorable part of his story was when he described how he “escaped” from his third floor apartment building to get to the hospital: he locked his front door (which he thought was being watched by enemy agents) and then swung down from his balcony to the one below it and on to the ground, all the time telling himself to “Remember your training, remember your training” (while in reality, he’d never trained as a secret agent). In his delusion, Alan thought he would be killed by either a missile strike on his apartment complex or be shot by the enemy agents who were circling in for the kill. The interviewer points out the tragic irony that when Alan finally made it to the place he felt would be safe, that he was actually shot. Alan still finds it difficult to deal with the fact that a police officer was willing to take his life with a gunshot to the chest. I can imagine such an experience being deeply traumatic for those of us with good mental health but it must be much more difficult for someone already dealing with psychological issues. From a personal point of view, a woman in my social circle about 15 years ago was suffering from bipolar disorder. I’d known her for about a year but had no clue that she had any problems with mental health. Then one day my brother and I met her on the street while she was having a manic episode. We took her into our home to look after her. I can’t recall the details but we found looking after her to be a distressing experience. We invited other friends in common around to help as we felt very much out of our depth. The next day her parents took her to a psychiatric hospital where she spent a few weeks while the doctors found a combination of medication that helped even out the mood swings. [1] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/579/my-damn-mind http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/579/m...
unquietcode 11y ago
I suffer from deep bouts of depression. Lately I've had to go back and forth with myself about going to the hospital when things get bad, but now I'm just scared even more. I was afraid that not going to the ER would kill me, but now... it's like fuck, who will help you? When you have a mental health emergency, the police will shoot you, fellow citizens will ignore you, the hospital may or may not treat you, and now they might even kill you. With mental health, it's so important for the patient to feel safe, and if a hospital isn't safe then, well, I dunno. Humans are always making other humans suffer needlessly, it's awful.

65 points by Anthony-G 11y ago

Since when is it acceptable to shoot an unarmed person? There isn't even any doubt in this case as to whether or not he had a weapon.

nordsieck 11y ago
The most common times are when there is a size or numbers disadvantage, but all it takes is a reasonable fear of imminent grave bodily harm or death. Those are the rules for private citizens (the details vary from state to state). Official security probably has more latitude to take action because they are responsible for the safety of everyone in the area.
- huac 11y ago
  > Official security probably has more latitude to take action because they are responsible for the safety of everyone in the area. probably, but they should have less latitude because of their training in other, non-violent methods to remove the threat. negotiation can help defuse most situations better than a taser or gunshot would. (was this sarcastic? or just hopeful?)
  - Kalium 11y ago
    Just hopeful, I'm afraid. It's easy to assume from the distance of many miles and a computer screen that every single situation can be addressed safely and easily by a soft word or three. Abstractly, that may be true, if you free yourself of certain constraints imposed by reality. For one, you have to assume that every single person in every single situation is open to negotiation. Second, you have to assume that nuanced and complex communication of the sort that enables negotiation is readily possible. Third, you have to assume that entering into negotiation will remove any threat the subject may pose to other people nearby. Fourth, you have to assume that trained negotiators arrive sufficiently fast for their magic stop-all-threats-to-everyone powers to engage in time. In reality, some or all of these can fail. I read about an incident in my city in the past few months where a mentally ill man was reported to police as wandering the streets, carrying a chain. The police arrived. An officer approached the man, attempting to speak with him. She wanted to find out if anything was wrong and see if there was a problem that needed addressing. He proceeded to beat her with the aforementioned chain. If memory serves, the situation was resolved when the armed, actively violent, mentally ill man was shot dead. And this is a scenario where presumably everyone speaks English! Where in there was she supposed to negotiate with him to solve all the problems at hand? What non-violent methods do you expect to bring a rapid halt to someone actively beating a police officer with a weapon that will be remotely as fast as lethal force? What happens if you have no shared languages, someone deep in the grips of hallucinations, and actively shooting people nearby? Do you expect negotiating police to defuse that problem by negotiating with someone incapable of recognizing them as people who want to negotiate?
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - DanBC 11y ago
      > It's easy to assume from the distance of many miles and a computer screen that every single situation can be addressed safely and easily by a soft word or three. It's easy to assume for me because I've seen the vast amounts of work currently happening around "behaviour seen as challenging" in people with mental illness or learning disability[1] or brain injury. Here shooting people is absolutely not possible in the vast majority of cases of behaviour seen as challenging. Tasering people is also absolutely not acceptable. Rapid tranquillisation is common, but not acceptable because of the amount of restraint needed immediately prior to the injection. Various methods of restraint are common, but are not acceptable because of the risk of injury or death. A lot of money is being spent on better training on de-escalation, diversion, prevention, etc. It's fucking baffling to me that people think it's okay to kill someone in distress just because the people doing the shooting are so lacking in skills that they have no other option. To me it's clearly a failure of everyone involved (and the departments they work for). In your example with the chain: you seem to think this is a situation where a violent response is undeniably the right thing. I see that and I think how fucking clueless the woman was, and how fucking clueless the people who shot the man were. There are plenty of Youtube videos comparing UK and US police responses to these situations. [1] UK definition.
      - Kalium 11y ago
        In the scenario I described, what do you think that the right non-violent solution was? I should also add that the PD had no way to know ahead of time that they were responding to a situation with a victim of mental illness in a time of distress who would exhibit behavior seen as challenging. Incidentally, this was not a situation where there were a half-dozen officers on hand to swarm the guy. Should officers always move in groups of six or more, so that any sudden violence can be handled with grappling? Seems expensive, at the very least. How do you propose that a single officer being actively beaten about the head with a chain de-escalate the situation? I'm deeply curious how you think that could be reasonably accomplished. Maybe saying please? What would an officer in the UK do in the situation I described when being actively beat about the head with a chain? How would it be totally different and reliably yield an ideal outcome? Another detail of relevance: the incident did not provide the officer with an opportunity to speak to the victim of mental illness in a time of distress. The victim attacked immediately upon the officer exiting her vehicle. If any and all forms of violence are ruled out, with de-escalation and negotiation being the order of the day, how should this officer have reacted to being beaten with a chain? What peaceful, non-violent, resolution skills are available to someone subject to such immediate violence?
  - ipsin 11y ago
    When your officers carry guns, there's an implicit duty to never lose control of that weapon in a situation, and that necessitates a certain distance, often "enforced" with a gun. You don't want to end up grappling with someone who might actually be much better at it.
- pmorici 11y ago
  Maybe, and in this case it was _two_ security officers vs one patient so they can't even claim they were at a numerical disadvantage.
tomjen3 11y ago
I am 5'3. A large, tall person could easily completely overpower me. If he came rushing at me I would have to shoot him to defend myself.
- rahimnathwani 11y ago
  I am also 5'3. I don't carry a gun, so I never 'have to' shoot anyone. The article described a situation in which two people with police training used a taser and a gun to restrain a naked man. It was two against one. Did they really need the taser? Even if they did, did they really need to shoot him with a gun, too?
- slantedview 11y ago
  If you're a hospital worker, then you deal with the individual in the story exactly as the other hospital workers did before the police arrived, as they always do, and nobody gets killed. If you give people guns, empower them to use them, and protect them from the legal ramifications, then stories like this are the obvious outcome.
davak 11y ago
Imagine you are in a small hospital room and unable to get out. A 300 pound 6'2 dude is yelling that he's going to kill you. His brain is so scrambled that the tazor did nothing. You are backed into a corner and he's walking toward you.
- Zigurd 11y ago
  In an age where such places have surveillance video you would think we don't need hypothetical scenarios. We'd have video of someone taking a solid hit from a Tazer and continuing an attack. But let's try this hypothetical: Imagine you are in a country without armed private security and only a subset of police are armed. Where are all the people who've been killed by 300 lbs crazed people?
  - tamana 11y ago
    They are in the imagination of armed officers, which is all the the law requires :-(
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    It's not that hard to find instances of crazed people committing murder or other serious acts of violence. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356115/Alabama-man-murdered-three-friends-meth-fueled-killing-spree-sexually-assaulted-witness-hunt-roadkill-deer.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356115/Alabama-man-... http://mtstandard.com/crime-and-courts/missoula-motel-murder-suspect-says-meth-fueled-attacks-accomplice-provides/article_8e558f4d-9aa3-5336-acc8-3b510fdaf9ae.html http://mtstandard.com/crime-and-courts/missoula-motel-murder... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/arizona-man-meth-set-bed-fire-murder-panic-article-1.2493720 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/arizona-man-meth-se... http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/04/fort_payne_man_now_charged_wit.html http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/04/fort_pay... http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/compensation-for-mother-of-woman-murdered-by-crazed-hammerwielding-motherinlaw-20160204-gmmcz4.html http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/compensation-for-mother-of... http://somd.com/news/headlines/2016/20355.php http://somd.com/news/headlines/2016/20355.php European nations will likely have fewer such problems than we do - our population is much more violent. As Scott Alexander once quipped, "Who'd have thought populating half a country with the descendants of a group of people called "Border Reavers" would cause so much trouble?" https://twitter.com/slatestarcodex/status/672540086932779009 https://twitter.com/slatestarcodex/status/672540086932779009 I'm not trying to say that the police were justified in this incident - note that I'm a huge critic of American policing. I'm merely pointing out that the threat is quite real.
EliRivers 11y ago
It's not about whether the other guy is armed or not. While I can't speak for other jurisdictions, in the UK it's about what's reasonable in the circumstances (with allowance made for the fact that someone in that situation does not have the time to make a full objective assessment of the situation). Sure, if the person attacking me is unarmed and I'm bigger, stronger, wearing armour and carrying a baton, shooting them might be considered unreasonable (but might be considered reasonable). If I'm in fear of my life and all I have is a handgun, shooting them is very reasonable. Of course, in the UK, the next question from the police would be "What's with the handgun?" :) All that said, in the case of Alan Pean in the article, I could well believe that the two off-duty police officers moonlighting as security guards were basically incompetent amateurs with weaponry, believing their own hype.
BurningFrog 11y ago
Fists and shoes are deadly weapons. They're far deadlier than movies have let you think. Very few people are actually unarmed.

jakobegger 11y ago

Over the years I've observed that a certain kind of people goes to work in law enforcement or security. They are often a bit aggressive, they seem to have this feeling of superiority, and they enjoy positions of authority. It's rarely the calm, humble, balanced types that work in those fields. I think this is extremely dangerous. Has anybody else made this observation? Is there anything that could be done to change this?

venomsnake 11y ago
Warrior Cop - Radley Balko is interesting read. There was observation from LAPD official that created the some of the first SWAT teams that the people most enthusiastic about being in SWAT most often are the one you really don't want there. I guess it gets even worse in the private sector - you may get a person without the needed background or training to resolve the situation in the optimal way.
sebcat 11y ago
The good security guys don't work a hospital security job. As with everything else, you get what you pay for. The calm, humble, balanced types go for greener pastures.
- davak 11y ago
  Complete garbage. Source -- My personal everyday experience.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- DennisP 11y ago
  The shooters were police officers, not regular hospital security. NPR did a piece on this case last night. They emphasized that there are standard procedures for dealing with mentally unstable patients in a hospital setting, and the cops weren't trained in those procedures. They ended up escalating the situation. They also interviewed a hospital security guard, who said the shooting was ridiculous. He said "We don't carry guns. We get hit all the time. We just deal with it." That wasn't the police approach. One got hit, so they responded like they would on the street and deployed tasers, then lethal force, and followed up with felony charges. Another issue was that the family asked for a mental health evaluation of the patient. Standard procedure is to immediately provide that upon request. Instead the hospital ignored it. Had they done a proper evaluation, the patient would have been moved to an area where they used regular security instead of police. As of now the hospital is at risk of losing federal funding, if it doesn't reform its policies to the satisfaction of federal investigators, including better training for the cops and further restriction of their areas of operation.

davak 11y ago

Working in hospitals over the last ten years, I have noticed an increase in how violent patients are. I believe the increasing use of synthetic rec drugs and the failing mental health system is to blame. Previously many of these dangerous cases would be locked up until they were safe. Now, everybody just tries to treat them as an outpatient. That with the easy access to guns makes hospitals very dangerous places these days.

ZenoArrow 11y ago
I caught pneumonia when I visited NYC a few years ago and was brought by ambulance to a hospital in Brooklyn. Some of the things I heard in the emergency room were shocking compared to what I'd experienced in emergency rooms before (I'm from the UK). The most surprising thing to me was how many of the patients were verbally abusive to the nurses. Perhaps these people were mentally unstable, I don't know, but I never expected to hear any patients attacking the people that were there to help them.
- Zelphyr 11y ago
  Nurses generally get treated terribly compared to doctors and others in the profession, despite the fact they are often the ones who are actually taking care of you (doctors diagnose, nurses treat). I guess it's because they're considered lower in the hierarchy simply because doctors went to school longer.
  - tamana 11y ago
    In the case parent described, it's just because nurses actually interact with patients, but doctors don't.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago

Simple answer: it was the night shift.

smoyer 11y ago

I don't know whether anyone else is seeing it but the subject's eyes appear to move when I use the scroll wheel on my mouse. I'm using the current Firefox Developer's Edition. It could be some effect of my graphics hardware, monitor or even the refresh rate versus the distance being scrolled but the effect is really creepy!

AI_Overlord 11y ago
If I were you I'd be careful on which hospital to choose in case you need care for delusions... :)
- smoyer 11y ago
  If I weren't being so lazy on a sunny Saturday, I'd be inclined to see whether my screen-casting software would capture it. Of course, then I'd be accused of tampering with it! When my wife gets home I'll ask her if she sees it too.

tamana 11y ago

The victim survived, but is now being persecuted by the government prosecution complex, including being charged with a crime for rushing himself to the hospital for treatment. I hope he finds a strong lawyer who can find justice and win a large settlement from the Rambo cops.

consto 11y ago
After reading the article, the reckless driving charge is the only one I agree with.
KMag 11y ago
Lucky for him, department guidelines only allow officers to shoot unarmed naked people of mixed or indeterminate race a single time, even if the officers yell "stop resisting" and/or "he's coming right for us" [0] first. They narrowly missed his heart, but had he been a single minority race, they could have kept shooting as long as they didn't stop to reload. [0] http://southpark.cc.com/clips/149674/its-coming-right-for-us http://southpark.cc.com/clips/149674/its-coming-right-for-us

k-mcgrady 11y ago

So we have a person clearly very ill and he can get seen more quickly by armed police officers than a medical professional who can actually help the situation? If he was in a room alone why, instead of sending in armed men, didn't they lock the door, get a doctor and some sedatives and then get security to restrain him while they actually gave him the care he came to the hospital for? I'm absolutely blown away that this could happen.

nommm-nommm 11y ago

>While St. Joseph does have a psychiatric ward, Mr. Pean was never seen by a psychiatrist Why does this happen? I know someone who showed up to the ER after crashing his car during a delusional manic episode. His wife showed up and said he has a history of bipolar disorder and needs a psychiatric evaluation. The nurse literally laughed at her!

GoodOldNe 11y ago
This happens because psychiatric units will not take patients who are not "medically cleared". Meaning that, if a patient has any evidence of injury or medical illness (or they think that the symptoms may be caused by something physiologic that has gone wrong -- leaving aside the fact that mental illness is physiologic at some level, you know what I mean) the psychiatric units want nothing to do with them.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  They were releasing him from the ER and he was already medically cleared.

chris_wot 11y ago

Are police officers allowed to moonlight as security guards?!?

0xcde4c3db 11y ago
Incredibly, in many places, yes. Not only that; some cities allow them to do so in uniform.
msellout 11y ago
Police often supplement their income with odd jobs. I once worked with a police detective who also worked as a sysadmin.
sp332 11y ago
Why on earth not?
- chris_wot 11y ago
  Conflict of interest.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    Whats the conflict of interest?
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      Think about it for a second. You can hire cops, doesn't matter what the cost. Oh, hi officer, you work for me as a security officer in your down time. Hey, if you still want that work, why don't we just agree to ignore that traffic infringement? That customer posting a bad review of my restaurant. He's acting like he's been on the wacky tabacky, nudge nudge... Best get him out of here to the police station, and whilst you're about it those comments are clearly drug affected. Just clear them. Incidentally, about that bonus for working extra hours - I put that in your account last night. Good work officer! edit: my new iPad didn't pick up the fact I wrote restaraunt. Aside from being a great typo to say aloud, wtf?

tsunamifury 11y ago

My uncle died in 2009 in a room alone, straight jacketed. He suffered a cardiac arrest likely cause by terror at a country hospital in Wisconsin. He had committed himself and was dead within 24 hours. It wasn't the first time the hospital has killed a patient using the same technique. In the subsequent years I have spent a lot of time thinking about why he died and the indifference of those around him when he was most vulnerable. Law enforcement refused to investigate mostly on the grounds that he was insane and there was nothing anyone could do. He had three kids and a wife who was a social worker. She was later fired as the state of Wisconsin decided social services where no longer a priority. I've come to the conclusion that most of us would rather ignore the problem of mental illness rather than solve it. It's more convenient to kill the ill than treat them and society simply looks the other way. I am given hope that his son is now a leading neuroscience Ph.D. Candidate at UC Davis. He has vowed to not let his father's death be in vain.

cmurf 11y ago
This is mainly a cultural and political problem. Hospitals used to overwhelmingly be non-profit. Now they are for profit. There's less and less funding available for what is a public health concern that enrich private for profit mental health facilities.
specialist 11y ago
I'm sorry for your loss. FWIW, I anticipate (hope) that addressing the needs of the mentally ill will be the next big civil rights movement, at least in the USA. Mostly due to increased awareness, for better or worse, thru social mediums. Just like with homosexuality before, I had no empathy because I couldn't relate. But then when you discover that its your friend, your family, your loved ones who is affected, I learned "Oh, they're just people, just like me." And then someone shares their story, like you just did, and I learn "Oh, it's not just me and mine." So I thank you for sharing. All the best.

Anthony-G 11y ago

For those who found this story to be interesting, I’d recommend listening to the associated This American Life episode. [1] It provides an insight into the internal experiences of somebody suffering from delusions. In his interview, Alan Pean tells a vividly detailed account of how he experienced the manic episode. He recalled how, at times, he would be able to rationalise the delusional thoughts away but they came so quickly, it was difficult to stay rational as the delusions had their own internal coherence. One memorable part of his story was when he described how he “escaped” from his third floor apartment building to get to the hospital: he locked his front door (which he thought was being watched by enemy agents) and then swung down from his balcony to the one below it and on to the ground, all the time telling himself to “Remember your training, remember your training” (while in reality, he’d never trained as a secret agent). In his delusion, Alan thought he would be killed by either a missile strike on his apartment complex or be shot by the enemy agents who were circling in for the kill. The interviewer points out the tragic irony that when Alan finally made it to the place he felt would be safe, that he was actually shot. Alan still finds it difficult to deal with the fact that a police officer was willing to take his life with a gunshot to the chest. I can imagine such an experience being deeply traumatic for those of us with good mental health but it must be much more difficult for someone already dealing with psychological issues. From a personal point of view, a woman in my social circle about 15 years ago was suffering from bipolar disorder. I’d known her for about a year but had no clue that she had any problems with mental health. Then one day my brother and I met her on the street while she was having a manic episode. We took her into our home to look after her. I can’t recall the details but we found looking after her to be a distressing experience. We invited other friends in common around to help as we felt very much out of our depth. The next day her parents took her to a psychiatric hospital where she spent a few weeks while the doctors found a combination of medication that helped even out the mood swings. [1] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/579/my-damn-mind http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/579/m...

unquietcode 11y ago

I suffer from deep bouts of depression. Lately I've had to go back and forth with myself about going to the hospital when things get bad, but now I'm just scared even more. I was afraid that not going to the ER would kill me, but now... it's like fuck, who will help you? When you have a mental health emergency, the police will shoot you, fellow citizens will ignore you, the hospital may or may not treat you, and now they might even kill you. With mental health, it's so important for the patient to feel safe, and if a hospital isn't safe then, well, I dunno. Humans are always making other humans suffer needlessly, it's awful.