4 ms·

That results in a different usability problem. Installed fonts are very nonstandard. At the moment I happen to be on an up-to-date version of Windows 7 and he

by na85 11y ago

That results in a different usability problem. Installed fonts are very nonstandard. At the moment I happen to be on an up-to-date version of Windows 7 and here's what it looks like: http://imgur.com/U5vZFRQ http://imgur.com/U5vZFRQ *edit: though it appears to render properly on Debian

outworlder 11y ago
"up-to-date version of windows7" reads like an oxymoron.
- mulmen 11y ago
  Why? Windows 7 gets regular updates. Windows 8/8.1/10 are not updates to Windows 7, it is a different operating system. Edit: Not sure why all the downvotes, I honestly don't see how "up to date Windows 7" is an oxymoron.
  - johnmaguire2013 11y ago
    Upvoted because downvotes without reasoning is pointless. In regards to why I think you may being downvoted: > reads like an oxymoron The parent was being a bit facetious. We all know they are different operating systems. But it's far less likely that an operating system that no longer receives "feature" updates would be up-to-date on its fonts. In any case, an oxymoron is (per Google): > a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g., faith unfaithful kept him falsely true ). Which I think the parent accurately described. (It's apparently contradictory, but has meaning.)
  - outworlder 11y ago
    > Why? Windows 7 gets regular updates. Windows 8/8.1/10 are not updates to Windows 7, it is a different operating system I'll address this point, the sibling comment already addressed the other point (it wasn't meant as a criticism, by the way). It's true that Windows 7 still get updates. However, these are mostly security updates, or bugfixes. We don't expect it to get new features. In this case, unicode font rendering. It is likely (but not guaranteed) that a user running Windows 10 would see a much better result.
    - na85 11y ago
      But then that user would be running Windows 10, which means they get to pay Microsoft for the privilege of having their data harvested and having an advertising ID assigned to their device. Why any sane individual willingly chooses windows 10 is beyond me. edit: Can't reply, but turning off the "phone home features" doesn't actually turn them off. It still phones home and you still get assigned an advertising ID. Sure, I could block it at the firewall potentially, but this is about taking an ideological stance.
      - ccoggins 11y ago
        It looks just like yours on Win 10 under Chrome. I was curious and tried in Edge and it renders fine. Also, the settings in Win 10 allow you to turn off a lot of the phone home type stuff. Other than that, my opinion is that 10 mostly feels like a more polished 7.
    - NetStrikeForce 11y ago
      Windows 10 on Chrome here, I see the same as the Windows 7 user above. Actually, it renders perfectly on Edge; so the problem is probably with Google Chrome.
pen2l 11y ago
Doesnt work on my main up-to-date Win8 computer either. (though interestingly when I open this page up with links2 on my vps, accessed through a terminal on the iphone, which is using a monospace font... it renders fine.. it doesn't render fine if I see the same thing with Putty on the Win8 computer. I guess fonts support in general on Win is bad)
Nadya 11y ago
>That results in a different usability problem. Installed fonts are very nonstandard. And some users change their default font and don't even use installed fonts and override preferences because they're in charge of how things display on their computer. I use Sofia-Pro and this is what I see: http://i.imgur.com/8PoNfdJ.png http://i.imgur.com/8PoNfdJ.png
- arm 11y ago
  Your browser/OS should be using font substitution¹ though when it encounters a character that the current font doesn’t have a glyph for. Font substitution is pretty much necessary since it’s currently impossible for one font to hold Unicode’s repertoire of 110,000+ characters; even the OpenType format is limited to a maximum of 65,536 glyphs. Assuming that it is using font substitution (as it should be whether or not you’ve chosen Sofia Pro as your browser’s default sans-serif font… unless you’ve also changed some other settings too), then the reason those characters show up as question marks is because you don’t have any fonts installed containing glyphs for those characters. (I’d recommend Everson Mono² or Symbola³). ―――――― ¹ — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_substitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_substitution ² — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_Mono https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_Mono ³ — https://web.archive.org/web/20150625020428/http://users.teilar.gr/~g1951d/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150625020428/http://users.teil...
  - Nadya 11y ago
    >Assuming that it is using font substitution (as it should be whether or not you’ve chosen Sofia Pro as your browser’s default sans-serif font… unless you’ve also changed some other settings too), Yes, actually. The only two fonts my browser is permitted to use are Sofia Pro and Meiryo. My point being nothing is wrong with alphanumeric representations of hexadecimal. Short of glyph fonts like Webdings, every font supports alphanumerics - even CJK fonts. Some users change settings - heavily so. The "safest default" should be the assumption. Changing something that works for most people to work only for "people with a proper supporting font installed" is breaking the web as far as any devs should be concerned.

by na85 11y ago

outworlder 11y ago

"up-to-date version of windows7" reads like an oxymoron.

mulmen 11y ago
Why? Windows 7 gets regular updates. Windows 8/8.1/10 are not updates to Windows 7, it is a different operating system. Edit: Not sure why all the downvotes, I honestly don't see how "up to date Windows 7" is an oxymoron.
- johnmaguire2013 11y ago
  Upvoted because downvotes without reasoning is pointless. In regards to why I think you may being downvoted: > reads like an oxymoron The parent was being a bit facetious. We all know they are different operating systems. But it's far less likely that an operating system that no longer receives "feature" updates would be up-to-date on its fonts. In any case, an oxymoron is (per Google): > a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g., faith unfaithful kept him falsely true ). Which I think the parent accurately described. (It's apparently contradictory, but has meaning.)
- outworlder 11y ago
  > Why? Windows 7 gets regular updates. Windows 8/8.1/10 are not updates to Windows 7, it is a different operating system I'll address this point, the sibling comment already addressed the other point (it wasn't meant as a criticism, by the way). It's true that Windows 7 still get updates. However, these are mostly security updates, or bugfixes. We don't expect it to get new features. In this case, unicode font rendering. It is likely (but not guaranteed) that a user running Windows 10 would see a much better result.
  - na85 11y ago
    But then that user would be running Windows 10, which means they get to pay Microsoft for the privilege of having their data harvested and having an advertising ID assigned to their device. Why any sane individual willingly chooses windows 10 is beyond me. edit: Can't reply, but turning off the "phone home features" doesn't actually turn them off. It still phones home and you still get assigned an advertising ID. Sure, I could block it at the firewall potentially, but this is about taking an ideological stance.
    - ccoggins 11y ago
      It looks just like yours on Win 10 under Chrome. I was curious and tried in Edge and it renders fine. Also, the settings in Win 10 allow you to turn off a lot of the phone home type stuff. Other than that, my opinion is that 10 mostly feels like a more polished 7.
  - NetStrikeForce 11y ago
    Windows 10 on Chrome here, I see the same as the Windows 7 user above. Actually, it renders perfectly on Edge; so the problem is probably with Google Chrome.

pen2l 11y ago

Doesnt work on my main up-to-date Win8 computer either. (though interestingly when I open this page up with links2 on my vps, accessed through a terminal on the iphone, which is using a monospace font... it renders fine.. it doesn't render fine if I see the same thing with Putty on the Win8 computer. I guess fonts support in general on Win is bad)

Nadya 11y ago

>That results in a different usability problem. Installed fonts are very nonstandard. And some users change their default font and don't even use installed fonts and override preferences because they're in charge of how things display on their computer. I use Sofia-Pro and this is what I see: http://i.imgur.com/8PoNfdJ.png http://i.imgur.com/8PoNfdJ.png

arm 11y ago
Your browser/OS should be using font substitution¹ though when it encounters a character that the current font doesn’t have a glyph for. Font substitution is pretty much necessary since it’s currently impossible for one font to hold Unicode’s repertoire of 110,000+ characters; even the OpenType format is limited to a maximum of 65,536 glyphs. Assuming that it is using font substitution (as it should be whether or not you’ve chosen Sofia Pro as your browser’s default sans-serif font… unless you’ve also changed some other settings too), then the reason those characters show up as question marks is because you don’t have any fonts installed containing glyphs for those characters. (I’d recommend Everson Mono² or Symbola³). ―――――― ¹ — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_substitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_substitution ² — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_Mono https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_Mono ³ — https://web.archive.org/web/20150625020428/http://users.teilar.gr/~g1951d/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150625020428/http://users.teil...
- Nadya 11y ago
  >Assuming that it is using font substitution (as it should be whether or not you’ve chosen Sofia Pro as your browser’s default sans-serif font… unless you’ve also changed some other settings too), Yes, actually. The only two fonts my browser is permitted to use are Sofia Pro and Meiryo. My point being nothing is wrong with alphanumeric representations of hexadecimal. Short of glyph fonts like Webdings, every font supports alphanumerics - even CJK fonts. Some users change settings - heavily so. The "safest default" should be the assumption. Changing something that works for most people to work only for "people with a proper supporting font installed" is breaking the web as far as any devs should be concerned.