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It's kind of hard to make the argument that the FSF tried to subvert the intention of the GPL, since they wrote both the GPL itself and the four freedoms (the p

It's kind of hard to make the argument that the FSF tried to subvert the intention of the GPL, since they wrote both the GPL itself and the four freedoms (the philosophical principles on which the GPL is based) . You can make it, yes, but it's not a very convincing one.

anon4 11y ago
The meaning of a work is determined solely by the interpretation of those who read it and the author's input is completely irrelevant[0]. In effect, what the FSF thought the spirit of the GPL is and what its actual spirit is, are two very different things. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author
- JupiterMoon 11y ago
  However if an author decides that their work is not being interpreted the way that they intended the author is free to release new work. Hence when the FSF decided that the interpretation of the GPLv2 was not what they had intended they were fully within their moral rights to release the GPLv3.
- pessimizer 11y ago
  This is absolutely true within postmodern literary criticism.
vacri 11y ago
Well, have a crack at it, then. Here is Torvalds talking about how he sees the point of the earlier GPL being subverted by v3, and that he thinks that the FSF lied to people about it. In his opinion, it should have been named a different license. He goes into detail about how it's not the license he hates, but how the FSF behaved around it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaKIZ7gJlRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaKIZ7gJlRU > since they wrote both the GPL itself and the four freedoms Also, having been part of organisations that have operated against their own philosophical principles and mission statements, I don't accept that the FSF is immune to changing their angle on things. And having hung around plenty of radical progressives growing up, I've seen some handy re-rationalisations of earlier positions. Overall, I'm on the side of the FSF. But fucked if I'm going to be part of this thing that progressives do, which is piss all over their allies (in this case, ubuntu) just because their opinion is slightly different to one's own. If someone's going to raise the "nuh-uh, subversion of license = evil", then fuck it, here is a video of someone at the heart of the whole licensing debate literally saying that the FSF behaved immorally about licenses too.
- zymhan 11y ago
  Interesting, I hadn't seen that video before. For those annoyed by video, he gets right to the point.
- Steltek 11y ago
  But isn't it healthy to re-examine your core beliefs and made tweaks or even whole substitutions? I don't see anything in GPLv3 that directly contradicts the original four freedoms. It was evolutionary to close loopholes like Tivo. But you have a second point: how you treat your allies and other sympathetic parties. Sadly, idealism seems to trend towards that behavior and it's pretty counterproductive.
  - vacri 11y ago
    I absolutely agree that you should be allowed to change your opinion over time, as long as you do it 'honestly'. For example, it bugs me when people lambaste politicians for having a different opinion now as opposed to 20 years ago. But at the same time, by 'honest' I mean being open about the changes and not quietly twisting them or hiding them, which is what Torvalds is complaining about in that video. In the organisations I mention I was part of, the same thing applies - lip service paid to the (sometimes stale) principles, but the behaviour was rationalised very baroquely to fit those principles. Re: the idealism stuff, my armchair psychology take on it is this: conservatives are passionate about things not changing, so minor differences don't matter so much because the overall goal is the same; progressives are passionate about things changing, so if the cart is going to move at all, it really needs to go in my direction. Add in the human predeliction for not seeing the forest for the trees, and the progressives will squabble over what really are minor differences.
baldfat 11y ago
Well the whole GNU-Linux kind of sums up the subvert issue :)
- ska 11y ago
  I can't see how that matches up with any definition of "subvert" I'm familiar with. There are reasonable argument pro and con the whole "Gnu Linux" thing, many of them silly and some cogent. But nobody was subverting (or attempting to) anything that I can see.
  - baldfat 11y ago
    > Sunvert (def) undermine the power and authority Seemed like it was to undermine Linus and place GNU on the same level as Linux kernel. (hurd) Don't get me wrong RMS is someone I am glad is alive and engaged with the community but I disagree with him most of the time.
    - ska 11y ago
      Seemed like it was to undermine Linus and place GNU on the same level as Linux kernel. I don't agree with your characterization at all, but let's not go over old ground.
- dkuntz2 11y ago
  That's not really the GPL though, that's just because very few people run Linux without also running countless GNU utilities. The people that argue for calling it GNU + Linux don't bring the GPL into it at all.

anon4 11y ago

The meaning of a work is determined solely by the interpretation of those who read it and the author's input is completely irrelevant[0]. In effect, what the FSF thought the spirit of the GPL is and what its actual spirit is, are two very different things. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author

JupiterMoon 11y ago
However if an author decides that their work is not being interpreted the way that they intended the author is free to release new work. Hence when the FSF decided that the interpretation of the GPLv2 was not what they had intended they were fully within their moral rights to release the GPLv3.
pessimizer 11y ago
This is absolutely true within postmodern literary criticism.

vacri 11y ago

Well, have a crack at it, then. Here is Torvalds talking about how he sees the point of the earlier GPL being subverted by v3, and that he thinks that the FSF lied to people about it. In his opinion, it should have been named a different license. He goes into detail about how it's not the license he hates, but how the FSF behaved around it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaKIZ7gJlRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaKIZ7gJlRU > since they wrote both the GPL itself and the four freedoms Also, having been part of organisations that have operated against their own philosophical principles and mission statements, I don't accept that the FSF is immune to changing their angle on things. And having hung around plenty of radical progressives growing up, I've seen some handy re-rationalisations of earlier positions. Overall, I'm on the side of the FSF. But fucked if I'm going to be part of this thing that progressives do, which is piss all over their allies (in this case, ubuntu) just because their opinion is slightly different to one's own. If someone's going to raise the "nuh-uh, subversion of license = evil", then fuck it, here is a video of someone at the heart of the whole licensing debate literally saying that the FSF behaved immorally about licenses too.

zymhan 11y ago
Interesting, I hadn't seen that video before. For those annoyed by video, he gets right to the point.
Steltek 11y ago
But isn't it healthy to re-examine your core beliefs and made tweaks or even whole substitutions? I don't see anything in GPLv3 that directly contradicts the original four freedoms. It was evolutionary to close loopholes like Tivo. But you have a second point: how you treat your allies and other sympathetic parties. Sadly, idealism seems to trend towards that behavior and it's pretty counterproductive.
- vacri 11y ago
  I absolutely agree that you should be allowed to change your opinion over time, as long as you do it 'honestly'. For example, it bugs me when people lambaste politicians for having a different opinion now as opposed to 20 years ago. But at the same time, by 'honest' I mean being open about the changes and not quietly twisting them or hiding them, which is what Torvalds is complaining about in that video. In the organisations I mention I was part of, the same thing applies - lip service paid to the (sometimes stale) principles, but the behaviour was rationalised very baroquely to fit those principles. Re: the idealism stuff, my armchair psychology take on it is this: conservatives are passionate about things not changing, so minor differences don't matter so much because the overall goal is the same; progressives are passionate about things changing, so if the cart is going to move at all, it really needs to go in my direction. Add in the human predeliction for not seeing the forest for the trees, and the progressives will squabble over what really are minor differences.

baldfat 11y ago

Well the whole GNU-Linux kind of sums up the subvert issue :)

ska 11y ago
I can't see how that matches up with any definition of "subvert" I'm familiar with. There are reasonable argument pro and con the whole "Gnu Linux" thing, many of them silly and some cogent. But nobody was subverting (or attempting to) anything that I can see.
- baldfat 11y ago
  > Sunvert (def) undermine the power and authority Seemed like it was to undermine Linus and place GNU on the same level as Linux kernel. (hurd) Don't get me wrong RMS is someone I am glad is alive and engaged with the community but I disagree with him most of the time.
  - ska 11y ago
    Seemed like it was to undermine Linus and place GNU on the same level as Linux kernel. I don't agree with your characterization at all, but let's not go over old ground.
dkuntz2 11y ago
That's not really the GPL though, that's just because very few people run Linux without also running countless GNU utilities. The people that argue for calling it GNU + Linux don't bring the GPL into it at all.