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> interpretations of the world are all in our head I don't think most people are stressed because of "interpretations" of the world rather than very real probl

by LunaSea 11y ago

> interpretations of the world are all in our head I don't think most people are stressed because of "interpretations" of the world rather than very real problems like paying the bills and terrible working conditions.

Karunamon 11y ago
There's an old saying about not being able to change your wind, but being able to change your sales? It's like that. Imagine you've got a bill due that you know you're not going to have money to pay no matter what you do. This is a significant amount of stress that you're going to be carrying with you over something you really don't have the power or situation to do anything about. Hence: Change your sail. The consequences of missing that payment are insignificant in the long term, and dwelling on it is going to do you more mental damage than moving a number in a database down a few ticks. Same with a horrible job. Even when you get time off, there's that sickening dread at the edge of your perception that soon, you'll have to go back. And it eats on you like nothing else. Change how you think about it. You can dwell on it and be stressed out, or you can recognize that this, too, shall pass. That sounds trite and blasé.. and it probably is, until you really internalize it, and realize that you ultimately have control over what you choose to dwell on.
crusso 11y ago
It's impossible to worry without interpretation. The method of interpretation can determine needless worrying about externalities vs handling them in stride.
amazingman 11y ago
The stress is the interpretation of/response to "very real problems". One of the habits formed in meditation is the ability to create space between perception and interpretation, in which we can explicitly notice how the mind is reacting to these problems, and where we can create a habit of asking of ourselves questions like "is this feeling/reaction useful?".
personjerry 11y ago
From my understanding, our minds are are not literally filled with things in the real world (for they would not fit) but are instead filled with "thoughts" which "refer" to real things. But my "thought" of peanut butter, for example, might have significantly different "connotations" for me than for someone with an allergy to peanut butter. So what I'm saying is, these "thoughts" and what they "connote" to the individual mind they belong to, is subjective and in our heads, but they may in fact refer to very objective, real, problems.
- LunaSea 11y ago
  So how would you alter your thought of a real problem if it seems legitimate to worry about it?
  - personjerry 11y ago
    There's no one answer to that, because "how" is dependent on the individual and their relation to their thoughts (i.e. my thoughts are probably organized very differently from yours). Furthermore, it is hard to claim that one would be able to "alter their thoughts" as directly as your sentence suggests, but meditation at least allows the recognition of separation between the "worry" in the mind and the "problem" in reality. For some people, this recognition leads to a sense of control over that worry, which might be one example of your "how".
  - mercer 11y ago
    If you define worry as "the state of being anxious and troubled over actual or potential problems", then I'd argue that worrying in itself has no positive effect on the 'real' problem anyways. The only mechanism by which 'worry' might be useful is if it triggers the problem-solving part of the mind and ultimately leads to actions that solve this problem. In my opinion this mechanism is highly inefficient and in fact often backfires: we focus on the worry instead of thinking about solutions, let alone implementing these solutions. Meditation, and a mindful approach to life is first of all useful as a debugging mechanism. As you train your ability to direct your thoughts and pause them, you learn to discern what kind of thinking is useful, and what isn't. So, for example, you might realize that you've been caught up in worry and just the act of being aware of this pointless train of thought might prompt you to sit down and create an action list of how to get out of this situation. Another benefit is that frequent meditation somehow improves the connection between the thinking mind and the subconscious, as well as the body. I've had moments where meditation helped me suddenly realize a solution to a problem that I couldn't previously solve. And almost every time that I meditate, I will be aware of hunger, or thirst, or some other feeling or physical need that I would otherwise completely neglect. Now I'm a particular type of person, so these benefits might be more explicit to me, but from what I understand most people will experience these things to some extent.
mkesper 11y ago
The "trick" is to not let these things overwhelm you. __Worrying__ about your bills doesn't make you able to pay them! In fact it may actually paralyze you.
DanBC 11y ago
Paying a bill is sometimes stressful. Paying a bill should never be so stressful that it causes a person to override their innate self-preservation and start thinking about suicide. The problem is a real world problem. The reaction to it is in someone's head. Sometimes people get overwhelmed by the feelings created by negative life events, and mindfulness style meditation is one way for people to calm those thoughts and emotions and allow them to work out more reasonable solutions. This is important because sometimes cognitive behaviour therapy is sold as "fix your broken thinking". Imagine someone has a history of abuse - they often say that their thinking is a reasonable result of the abuse.
bonoboTP 11y ago
It's analogous to physical pain. If you're holding your hand on the stove and it burns, it makes you pull your hand away. But some people may be "miswired" and not pull away. But then the solution isn't to give them painkillers and just watch their hand burn its flesh away. But then again, there is pain that doesn't indicate something fixable. Like chronic back pain. Then it's best to just reduce the pain itself. Now, how do you differentiate in case of worrying? Probably by asking a trusted friend or family member or someone else if they think your worries are legitimate and what they suggest doing. But not all stress has a concrete cause, like bills. Sometimes people just get stressed and anxious in general. I'd wager that some general base level of worry exists in all humanity that comes to surface regardless of wealth and security. I mean, the magazines in rich countries (especially Western Europe) are full of "how do I get happy", "how do I become myself", "how do I unfold my potential" etc. At least in poorer countries people can always point out why they are stressed. They can blame the bills, the credit, the other political side etc. In places like SV, people live so well, they are past the point of realistic worries, so they don't understand why they don't feel fully happy. If you have a shitty life in a poor country, without any hope of stepping forward, nobody will think you're depressed. Everyone, including you, will think it's just a natural reaction. I guess this is why depression is such a big topic in rich places and is seen as some whining and bitching in less developed places.
- YZF 11y ago
  It turns our that in many cases chronic back pain (and other pain) has a psychological component to it as well. Often that pain is a response to some sort of mental stress or tensions.

by LunaSea 11y ago

Karunamon 11y ago

There's an old saying about not being able to change your wind, but being able to change your sales? It's like that. Imagine you've got a bill due that you know you're not going to have money to pay no matter what you do. This is a significant amount of stress that you're going to be carrying with you over something you really don't have the power or situation to do anything about. Hence: Change your sail. The consequences of missing that payment are insignificant in the long term, and dwelling on it is going to do you more mental damage than moving a number in a database down a few ticks. Same with a horrible job. Even when you get time off, there's that sickening dread at the edge of your perception that soon, you'll have to go back. And it eats on you like nothing else. Change how you think about it. You can dwell on it and be stressed out, or you can recognize that this, too, shall pass. That sounds trite and blasé.. and it probably is, until you really internalize it, and realize that you ultimately have control over what you choose to dwell on.

crusso 11y ago

It's impossible to worry without interpretation. The method of interpretation can determine needless worrying about externalities vs handling them in stride.

amazingman 11y ago

The stress is the interpretation of/response to "very real problems". One of the habits formed in meditation is the ability to create space between perception and interpretation, in which we can explicitly notice how the mind is reacting to these problems, and where we can create a habit of asking of ourselves questions like "is this feeling/reaction useful?".

personjerry 11y ago

From my understanding, our minds are are not literally filled with things in the real world (for they would not fit) but are instead filled with "thoughts" which "refer" to real things. But my "thought" of peanut butter, for example, might have significantly different "connotations" for me than for someone with an allergy to peanut butter. So what I'm saying is, these "thoughts" and what they "connote" to the individual mind they belong to, is subjective and in our heads, but they may in fact refer to very objective, real, problems.

LunaSea 11y ago
So how would you alter your thought of a real problem if it seems legitimate to worry about it?
- personjerry 11y ago
  There's no one answer to that, because "how" is dependent on the individual and their relation to their thoughts (i.e. my thoughts are probably organized very differently from yours). Furthermore, it is hard to claim that one would be able to "alter their thoughts" as directly as your sentence suggests, but meditation at least allows the recognition of separation between the "worry" in the mind and the "problem" in reality. For some people, this recognition leads to a sense of control over that worry, which might be one example of your "how".
- mercer 11y ago
  If you define worry as "the state of being anxious and troubled over actual or potential problems", then I'd argue that worrying in itself has no positive effect on the 'real' problem anyways. The only mechanism by which 'worry' might be useful is if it triggers the problem-solving part of the mind and ultimately leads to actions that solve this problem. In my opinion this mechanism is highly inefficient and in fact often backfires: we focus on the worry instead of thinking about solutions, let alone implementing these solutions. Meditation, and a mindful approach to life is first of all useful as a debugging mechanism. As you train your ability to direct your thoughts and pause them, you learn to discern what kind of thinking is useful, and what isn't. So, for example, you might realize that you've been caught up in worry and just the act of being aware of this pointless train of thought might prompt you to sit down and create an action list of how to get out of this situation. Another benefit is that frequent meditation somehow improves the connection between the thinking mind and the subconscious, as well as the body. I've had moments where meditation helped me suddenly realize a solution to a problem that I couldn't previously solve. And almost every time that I meditate, I will be aware of hunger, or thirst, or some other feeling or physical need that I would otherwise completely neglect. Now I'm a particular type of person, so these benefits might be more explicit to me, but from what I understand most people will experience these things to some extent.

mkesper 11y ago

The "trick" is to not let these things overwhelm you. __Worrying__ about your bills doesn't make you able to pay them! In fact it may actually paralyze you.

DanBC 11y ago

Paying a bill is sometimes stressful. Paying a bill should never be so stressful that it causes a person to override their innate self-preservation and start thinking about suicide. The problem is a real world problem. The reaction to it is in someone's head. Sometimes people get overwhelmed by the feelings created by negative life events, and mindfulness style meditation is one way for people to calm those thoughts and emotions and allow them to work out more reasonable solutions. This is important because sometimes cognitive behaviour therapy is sold as "fix your broken thinking". Imagine someone has a history of abuse - they often say that their thinking is a reasonable result of the abuse.

bonoboTP 11y ago

It's analogous to physical pain. If you're holding your hand on the stove and it burns, it makes you pull your hand away. But some people may be "miswired" and not pull away. But then the solution isn't to give them painkillers and just watch their hand burn its flesh away. But then again, there is pain that doesn't indicate something fixable. Like chronic back pain. Then it's best to just reduce the pain itself. Now, how do you differentiate in case of worrying? Probably by asking a trusted friend or family member or someone else if they think your worries are legitimate and what they suggest doing. But not all stress has a concrete cause, like bills. Sometimes people just get stressed and anxious in general. I'd wager that some general base level of worry exists in all humanity that comes to surface regardless of wealth and security. I mean, the magazines in rich countries (especially Western Europe) are full of "how do I get happy", "how do I become myself", "how do I unfold my potential" etc. At least in poorer countries people can always point out why they are stressed. They can blame the bills, the credit, the other political side etc. In places like SV, people live so well, they are past the point of realistic worries, so they don't understand why they don't feel fully happy. If you have a shitty life in a poor country, without any hope of stepping forward, nobody will think you're depressed. Everyone, including you, will think it's just a natural reaction. I guess this is why depression is such a big topic in rich places and is seen as some whining and bitching in less developed places.

YZF 11y ago
It turns our that in many cases chronic back pain (and other pain) has a psychological component to it as well. Often that pain is a response to some sort of mental stress or tensions.