4 ms·

Not sure if this has been discussed, but it seems that the only reason this is an issue is because Apple has the ability to install new software on a locked dev

Not sure if this has been discussed, but it seems that the only reason this is an issue is because Apple has the ability to install new software on a locked device. Couldn’t Apple simply remove the ability for a software update to take place without the device being unlocked or wiped? Obviously this wouldn’t apply retroactively to old IOS versions, but it would be consistent with their change in policy from IOS 7 to 8.

dustingetz 11y ago
> Apple has the ability to install new software on a locked device. People keep saying this but it probably isn't true. When law enforcement has physical access to the hardware, they can take apart the phone and flash it with new software and put it back together.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  I don't think that's what's meant either. You can plug any iPhone into iTunes and flash new firmware to it, as long as it's signed by Apple. That's what the FBI want to do, I believe.
  - Normal_gaussian 11y ago
    This is correct. To prevent this kind of attack surface the mechanism for applying new firmware needs to wipe access keys for the encrypted data, and for these keys to not be accessible without changing the firmware.
    - dustingetz 11y ago
      but i already have to enter my password to apply the update and again when my device boots? Can you link to technical details please, I have been following these developments and have seen no technical explanation of the vector.
typicalbender 11y ago
I don't know if they do, and if they do they going out of their way to keep it hidden. They released an update to fix bricked phones where the touchID was repaired by a 3rd party [1]. The update was only released through iTunes because they cannot push an OTA update to a locked device. [1]: http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/18/apple-apologizes-and-updates-ios-to-restore-iphones-disabled-by-error-53/ http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/18/apple-apologizes-and-update...
vilhelm_s 11y ago
I think they have already done this, but the phone at the center of the current controversy had not been updated to the new version of iOS. (In the new version, in order to update the OS on a locked phone you need to enter your passcode). Edit: No, apparently this is wrong. I got it from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/02/18/preliminary-thoughts-on-the-apple-iphone-order-in-the-san-bernardino-case-part-1/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201... , but that article has since been updated.
- ubernostrum 11y ago
  From TFA: The California case, in contrast, involves a device running iOS 9. The data that was previously accessible while a phone was locked ceased to be so as of the release of iOS 8, when Apple started securing it with encryption tied to the passcode, rather than the hardware ID of the device. FaceTime, for instance, has been encrypted since 2010, and iMessages since 2011. So Apple is unable to extract any data including iMessages from the device because all of that data is encrypted. This is the only reason that the FBI now wants Apple to weaken its security so that it can brute-force the passcode. Because the data cannot be read unless the passcode is entered properly.
  - pyre 11y ago
    They want Apple to disable limitations that disallow them from brute-forcing the passcode. This isn't even possible (supposedly) on newer A7-based devices that have security hardware (i.e. the "secure enclave").
    - SAI_Peregrinus 11y ago
      I'd say it's certainly possible, just difficult. Considering what Chris Tarnovsky has done as a hobbyist (with a focused ion beam workstation) to hack several TPM and smart card chips and get their secrets out the FBI has to be incompetent not to be able to do the same thing to Apple's hardware. Or this is just a fishing expedition because doing that is difficult and doesn't give them any more power.
    - 11y ago

dustingetz 11y ago

> Apple has the ability to install new software on a locked device. People keep saying this but it probably isn't true. When law enforcement has physical access to the hardware, they can take apart the phone and flash it with new software and put it back together.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
I don't think that's what's meant either. You can plug any iPhone into iTunes and flash new firmware to it, as long as it's signed by Apple. That's what the FBI want to do, I believe.
- Normal_gaussian 11y ago
  This is correct. To prevent this kind of attack surface the mechanism for applying new firmware needs to wipe access keys for the encrypted data, and for these keys to not be accessible without changing the firmware.
  - dustingetz 11y ago
    but i already have to enter my password to apply the update and again when my device boots? Can you link to technical details please, I have been following these developments and have seen no technical explanation of the vector.

typicalbender 11y ago

I don't know if they do, and if they do they going out of their way to keep it hidden. They released an update to fix bricked phones where the touchID was repaired by a 3rd party [1]. The update was only released through iTunes because they cannot push an OTA update to a locked device. [1]: http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/18/apple-apologizes-and-updates-ios-to-restore-iphones-disabled-by-error-53/ http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/18/apple-apologizes-and-update...

vilhelm_s 11y ago

I think they have already done this, but the phone at the center of the current controversy had not been updated to the new version of iOS. (In the new version, in order to update the OS on a locked phone you need to enter your passcode). Edit: No, apparently this is wrong. I got it from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/02/18/preliminary-thoughts-on-the-apple-iphone-order-in-the-san-bernardino-case-part-1/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201... , but that article has since been updated.

ubernostrum 11y ago
From TFA: The California case, in contrast, involves a device running iOS 9. The data that was previously accessible while a phone was locked ceased to be so as of the release of iOS 8, when Apple started securing it with encryption tied to the passcode, rather than the hardware ID of the device. FaceTime, for instance, has been encrypted since 2010, and iMessages since 2011. So Apple is unable to extract any data including iMessages from the device because all of that data is encrypted. This is the only reason that the FBI now wants Apple to weaken its security so that it can brute-force the passcode. Because the data cannot be read unless the passcode is entered properly.
- pyre 11y ago
  They want Apple to disable limitations that disallow them from brute-forcing the passcode. This isn't even possible (supposedly) on newer A7-based devices that have security hardware (i.e. the "secure enclave").
  - SAI_Peregrinus 11y ago
    I'd say it's certainly possible, just difficult. Considering what Chris Tarnovsky has done as a hobbyist (with a focused ion beam workstation) to hack several TPM and smart card chips and get their secrets out the FBI has to be incompetent not to be able to do the same thing to Apple's hardware. Or this is just a fishing expedition because doing that is difficult and doesn't give them any more power.
  - 11y ago