4 ms·

Culture, mathematical models, and Neandertal extinction

31 points by diodorus 11y ago

blisterpeanuts 11y ago
Interesting. Teasing apart the many factors that play a role in the extinction of the Neanderthals is exceedingly difficult. Decades ago, it was assumed that the Neanderthals were intellectually and technologically inferior to modern humans, and simply could not compete. However, recent discoveries demonstrated that the Neanderthals had art, tools, and shelters. They probably had language. Their brains were larger than that of modern humans. They were much stronger. Some scientists speculate that the Neanderthals could not adapt to the changing climate as the ice age receded, whereas modern humans from Africa were are better adapted to warmer climates. I doubt that. The Neanderthals spent 200,000 years in Northern Europe, Southern Europe, the Middle East, and parts of Asia; surely they were quite adaptable, to have survived that long. I suspect that the reason the Neanderthals died out is that modern humans were more aggressive, more murderous, more apt to kill the other. Modern humans developed in the brutal savannas and jungles of Africa, and when they came north, they brought their brutal ways with them. When they encountered Neanderthals, they probably killed the men and enslaved some of the women. Eventually, the Neanderthal population dropped so low that it was no longer sustainable as a separate species.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  More murderous humans? Killing and enslavement? Speculation. It is known that Neanderthals would slaughter and eat their own kind during a hard winter. And that when Neanderthal encountered the more elegant and graceful arrow and spear point flakes of the modern human, they attempted to imitate them - by chipping an entire nodule down to make one point. Not the correct method which is flaking dozens of good points off of one nodule. Not so good with technology, Neanderthals. And there were never many Neanderthal at all, at any time. Not a successful species really. It takes no fiction of murder and enslavement to explain them away. Intermarrying would do it handily, with the overwhelming population of Homo Sapiens spreading through their territory.
  - blisterpeanuts 11y ago
    Of course I'm speculating. It's also speculation to assume the Neanderthals imitated, badly, the technology of modern humans. Indeed the article asserts that the humans who first ventured into Neanderthal territory did not have superior technology. So who developed better spear points? No way of knowing, really. Some genius from either group, perhaps. As for arrows... bows were not known to exist until tens of thousands of years after the time period we're discussing. Atl-atl are thought to have existed since Upper Paleolithic (30KYA) but it's now believed that modern humans were in Europe and Asia much earlier, perhaps 70K or 80K years ago. It was between 40K-30K that the Neanderthal disappeared. Cannibalism is assumed, based on tooth marks on bone. There's no evidence that it was universally practiced, however. Maybe just a few extreme cases. Or perhaps it was universal among hominids -- meat is meat.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      We can make up stories to suit a particular narrative. Or look at the evidence dispassionately. Maybe its not in this article, but well documented that Neanderthals were cannibals. Not tooth marks - butcher marks on the bone, a dozen individuals at one site that were related, all during a hard winter. Clearly an entire troupe of neighbors slaughtered for meat. Then there are sites inhabited over decades by Human and Neanderthal in turn. That's where its clear that at least some Neanderthal failed to adopt the better technology.

31 points by diodorus 11y ago

Interesting. Teasing apart the many factors that play a role in the extinction of the Neanderthals is exceedingly difficult. Decades ago, it was assumed that the Neanderthals were intellectually and technologically inferior to modern humans, and simply could not compete. However, recent discoveries demonstrated that the Neanderthals had art, tools, and shelters. They probably had language. Their brains were larger than that of modern humans. They were much stronger. Some scientists speculate that the Neanderthals could not adapt to the changing climate as the ice age receded, whereas modern humans from Africa were are better adapted to warmer climates. I doubt that. The Neanderthals spent 200,000 years in Northern Europe, Southern Europe, the Middle East, and parts of Asia; surely they were quite adaptable, to have survived that long. I suspect that the reason the Neanderthals died out is that modern humans were more aggressive, more murderous, more apt to kill the other. Modern humans developed in the brutal savannas and jungles of Africa, and when they came north, they brought their brutal ways with them. When they encountered Neanderthals, they probably killed the men and enslaved some of the women. Eventually, the Neanderthal population dropped so low that it was no longer sustainable as a separate species.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
More murderous humans? Killing and enslavement? Speculation. It is known that Neanderthals would slaughter and eat their own kind during a hard winter. And that when Neanderthal encountered the more elegant and graceful arrow and spear point flakes of the modern human, they attempted to imitate them - by chipping an entire nodule down to make one point. Not the correct method which is flaking dozens of good points off of one nodule. Not so good with technology, Neanderthals. And there were never many Neanderthal at all, at any time. Not a successful species really. It takes no fiction of murder and enslavement to explain them away. Intermarrying would do it handily, with the overwhelming population of Homo Sapiens spreading through their territory.
- blisterpeanuts 11y ago
  Of course I'm speculating. It's also speculation to assume the Neanderthals imitated, badly, the technology of modern humans. Indeed the article asserts that the humans who first ventured into Neanderthal territory did not have superior technology. So who developed better spear points? No way of knowing, really. Some genius from either group, perhaps. As for arrows... bows were not known to exist until tens of thousands of years after the time period we're discussing. Atl-atl are thought to have existed since Upper Paleolithic (30KYA) but it's now believed that modern humans were in Europe and Asia much earlier, perhaps 70K or 80K years ago. It was between 40K-30K that the Neanderthal disappeared. Cannibalism is assumed, based on tooth marks on bone. There's no evidence that it was universally practiced, however. Maybe just a few extreme cases. Or perhaps it was universal among hominids -- meat is meat.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    We can make up stories to suit a particular narrative. Or look at the evidence dispassionately. Maybe its not in this article, but well documented that Neanderthals were cannibals. Not tooth marks - butcher marks on the bone, a dozen individuals at one site that were related, all during a hard winter. Clearly an entire troupe of neighbors slaughtered for meat. Then there are sites inhabited over decades by Human and Neanderthal in turn. That's where its clear that at least some Neanderthal failed to adopt the better technology.