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I would wager that the FBI and CIA are technically capable of breaking the security on this phone. This is likely more about setting legal precedent via a case

I would wager that the FBI and CIA are technically capable of breaking the security on this phone. This is likely more about setting legal precedent via a case that is very much in the public eye.

vinceguidry 11y ago
I very much doubt that. These agencies are very capable of operating outside of the law if it will get the job done. All a stunt like this does is raise public awareness, limiting their options. They wouldn't do that unless they couldn't get it done via other means. Only the fact that this is a terror case makes them willing to roll the dice at all on the craps table of public opinion. It gives them an advantage, but not an overwhelming one.
- mahyarm 11y ago
  Well for a million + they could delaminate the chips and read the private keys off them in a painstaking way.
  - snowwrestler 11y ago
    But that is incredibly risky; it would be easy to make a mistake, and if they do, the information is gone forever, which is the worst case scenario for them. I absolutely believe that the FBI thinks this is the only way to get this data. Yes, they might like to get a strong precedent in favor of this, but what if the precedent goes against them? You never know what you're going to get in court. This would be appealed to the 9th Circuit, which has a history of being skeptical of government arguments in favor of collecting digital data. And if the Supreme Court deadlocks 4-4 (as it could now), the appellate ruling would stand.
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      It seems like many people don't get the concept of evidence preservation. Apple put in a feature, which they may circumvent, that will effectively brick the device if it is tampered in certain ways. The lowest risk option for retrieving the data is to get the people who designed the device to implement their circumvention method. That is exactly what the FBI asked for and what the judge agreed to. Why should the FBI have to waste resources reverse engineering Apple's product (and risk destruction of evidence) when Apple is wholly capable of helping out?
      - grillvogel 11y ago
        >Why should the FBI have to waste resources reverse engineering Apple's product (and risk destruction of evidence) when Apple is wholly capable of helping out? so now apple has to pay for engineers to design and implement this change to their product because the government said so? why is apple required to "help out"?
        jsprogrammer 11y ago
        Apple is currently required because there is an outstanding court order. I'm not sure if they have submitted a formal appeal. I do think there are some interesting questions about "forced work" here, but that can be said of any subpoena, and I don't think many would contest the entire concept. From my standpoint: Apple can prove critical in obtaining whatever evidence/information may be on the device. It may certainly be the case that there is nothing valuable there, but such events should be thoroughly investigated. This was a personal computing device of a person who killed many, we need to know what is on it, and we can. It wouldn't surprise me if Apple were already working on the software.
      - snowwrestler 11y ago
        Apple is a $500 billion company that sells hundreds of millions of devices each year and has more credit card-linked accounts than any other company on Earth. If a warrant can force Apple to do this work now, then what is the criteria that would determine when Apple wouldn't have to help out? That is the key legal question. If a warrant can force Apple to do whatever the warrant says would be helpful to the FBI, then that's a pretty huge scope of potential work.
grillvogel 11y ago
using their magical AES breaking powers?
- mintplant 11y ago
  From Apple's letter [1]: > Specifically, the FBI wants us to make a new version of the iPhone operating system, circumventing several important security features, and install it on an iPhone recovered during the investigation. In the wrong hands, this software — which does not exist today — would have the potential to unlock any iPhone in someone’s physical possession. > The FBI may use different words to describe this tool, but make no mistake: Building a version of iOS that bypasses security in this way would undeniably create a backdoor. So it's not a matter of technical impossibility. [1] https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/
  - grillvogel 11y ago
    if the gov were capable of doing this themselves they would have done it already
  - squeaky-clean 11y ago
    For Apple it's not impossible. The government can't push updates to a phone without the necessary keys.

I would wager that the FBI and CIA are technically capable of breaking the security on this phone. This is likely more about setting legal precedent via a case that is very much in the public eye.

vinceguidry 11y ago

I very much doubt that. These agencies are very capable of operating outside of the law if it will get the job done. All a stunt like this does is raise public awareness, limiting their options. They wouldn't do that unless they couldn't get it done via other means. Only the fact that this is a terror case makes them willing to roll the dice at all on the craps table of public opinion. It gives them an advantage, but not an overwhelming one.

mahyarm 11y ago
Well for a million + they could delaminate the chips and read the private keys off them in a painstaking way.
- snowwrestler 11y ago
  But that is incredibly risky; it would be easy to make a mistake, and if they do, the information is gone forever, which is the worst case scenario for them. I absolutely believe that the FBI thinks this is the only way to get this data. Yes, they might like to get a strong precedent in favor of this, but what if the precedent goes against them? You never know what you're going to get in court. This would be appealed to the 9th Circuit, which has a history of being skeptical of government arguments in favor of collecting digital data. And if the Supreme Court deadlocks 4-4 (as it could now), the appellate ruling would stand.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    It seems like many people don't get the concept of evidence preservation. Apple put in a feature, which they may circumvent, that will effectively brick the device if it is tampered in certain ways. The lowest risk option for retrieving the data is to get the people who designed the device to implement their circumvention method. That is exactly what the FBI asked for and what the judge agreed to. Why should the FBI have to waste resources reverse engineering Apple's product (and risk destruction of evidence) when Apple is wholly capable of helping out?
    - grillvogel 11y ago
      >Why should the FBI have to waste resources reverse engineering Apple's product (and risk destruction of evidence) when Apple is wholly capable of helping out? so now apple has to pay for engineers to design and implement this change to their product because the government said so? why is apple required to "help out"?
      - jsprogrammer 11y ago
        Apple is currently required because there is an outstanding court order. I'm not sure if they have submitted a formal appeal. I do think there are some interesting questions about "forced work" here, but that can be said of any subpoena, and I don't think many would contest the entire concept. From my standpoint: Apple can prove critical in obtaining whatever evidence/information may be on the device. It may certainly be the case that there is nothing valuable there, but such events should be thoroughly investigated. This was a personal computing device of a person who killed many, we need to know what is on it, and we can. It wouldn't surprise me if Apple were already working on the software.
    - snowwrestler 11y ago
      Apple is a $500 billion company that sells hundreds of millions of devices each year and has more credit card-linked accounts than any other company on Earth. If a warrant can force Apple to do this work now, then what is the criteria that would determine when Apple wouldn't have to help out? That is the key legal question. If a warrant can force Apple to do whatever the warrant says would be helpful to the FBI, then that's a pretty huge scope of potential work.

grillvogel 11y ago

using their magical AES breaking powers?

mintplant 11y ago
From Apple's letter [1]: > Specifically, the FBI wants us to make a new version of the iPhone operating system, circumventing several important security features, and install it on an iPhone recovered during the investigation. In the wrong hands, this software — which does not exist today — would have the potential to unlock any iPhone in someone’s physical possession. > The FBI may use different words to describe this tool, but make no mistake: Building a version of iOS that bypasses security in this way would undeniably create a backdoor. So it's not a matter of technical impossibility. [1] https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/
- grillvogel 11y ago
  if the gov were capable of doing this themselves they would have done it already
- squeaky-clean 11y ago
  For Apple it's not impossible. The government can't push updates to a phone without the necessary keys.