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Why does every comment on here need to be cited? Nobody is writing a research paper through HN comments. We're just having a conversation.

by maratd 11y ago

cloverich 11y ago
Because personal accounts are only generalizable when backed by additional sources / data. There's a difference between whether or not this person is being genuine (My bias is yes) and whether or not their accounts are generalizable (My bias is no). Asking for citations is to me a way of asking someone who seems already familiar with what they are describing for more information, so I can learn more / share with others / etc.
- JumpCrisscross 11y ago
  It's a good habit to get into. I can't count the number of times I went searching for a citation to something seemingly obvious only to have my assumptions thrown in my face by the data.
- blackrose 11y ago
  He was obviously being anecdotal. Asking for a citation on it is like asking for a professional food critic's review on a cheeseburger that your friend just ate and said was "really good." It's pedantic and condescending when OP obviously has some experience with the situation based on their profession.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    Nothing you've just stated negates the fact that personal accounts are only generalizable when backed by additional sources and/or data. If there are 25,000 homeless and an EMT sees 1000 homeless people in a year (which I'd say I'm probably vastly over estimating) in situations where they are in greatest need, then all you have is a limited anecdotal view of a small proportion of the total population of homeless people at the lowest and least dignified point in their lives. It doesn't tell you how they got to be in that situation. It doesn't show you their day to day grind. It doesn't indicate if they always want to be homeless, or you've just seen them when they are feeling defensive or aren't in full control of their faculties. In short, it just shows you that because of the nature of being an EMT, he sees people in dire situations, on occasions that would frustrate anyone viewing the homeless person because of any number of high stress factors, including mental illness but also malnutrition, poor sleep or severe discomfort.
    - blackrose 11y ago
      What is the point of being this pedantic? He said: in my experience, most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs and/or contribute to society in manner that will lead them out of "homelessness." Let's look again: in my experience, most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs And again: in my experience In case you missed it: IN MY EXPERIENCE He then goes on to explain his experience! It's called an anecdote. It doesn't mean it's generalizable. It means it's a data point, like saying a cheeseburger is "good." I don't preface every subjective, anecdotal statement with, "In my personal experience, but without citation or empirical data to back it up." He said all he needed, to where if you're asking for citation, you either lack reading comprehension skills or are just being a dick.
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        Your own reading comprehension seems rather lacking. All that was being said was that it would to good to get empirical data to see if the anecdotal evidence presented is backed up - it's good to validate the perceptions of the person on the coal face. Nobody is being dickish here, though you are getting very close.
jff 11y ago
Because on HN it's considered poor form to say "I think you're full of shit" or "I don't like what you're saying", instead it's better to say "got a source?". It casts doubt on the truthfulness or provenance of the original poster's assertion, while still looking polite.
- maratd 11y ago
  I'm well aware of why people do it. It's rude regardless. If you disagree with someone either use those little arrows next to the post, make a counter-argument, or STFU. Posting "you're full of shit" or "citation needed" is lazy and rude. You don't want to speak up with something more sensible? Fine. That's why those little arrows next to the comment exist. Don't post rude garbage instead.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    It's rude to use [citation needed] to belittle another person. It's certainly unacceptable to tell someone they're full of shit. It's also rude to tell someone to shut the fuck up. It's not rude to question assumptions or to ask where someone gets their data from. The voting system is good on HN, but it's limited. If you post something controversial, but possibly accurate, then if only people who don't like what you say vote you down, then it just shows that people don't like what you say. If you write something popular but kind of dodgy, then you'll get voted up significantly - and given nobody but yourself can see your score then your comment just shows in normal font weight. Those who vote it down can get it to a score of 1, and nobody will be any the wiser. So the vote mechanism is very good here, and very effective, but it doesn't necessarily improve discourse. Nor does it force people to justify their views. Nor does it help progress understanding. I've often been asked to provide a source for my views. I'm always happy to do so. Heck, there have even been a few times it has forced me to concede that my view wasn't well thought out. If anything, bring politely questioned helped me more than it did the questioner. Other times there has been the pleasant and surprising occassion where the questioner thanked me for my sources and agreed that I was probably correct. That's hardly "rude garbage".
    - 11y ago

Why does every comment on here need to be cited? Nobody is writing a research paper through HN comments. We're just having a conversation.

by maratd 11y ago

Why does every comment on here need to be cited? Nobody is writing a research paper through HN comments. We're just having a conversation.

cloverich 11y ago

Because personal accounts are only generalizable when backed by additional sources / data. There's a difference between whether or not this person is being genuine (My bias is yes) and whether or not their accounts are generalizable (My bias is no). Asking for citations is to me a way of asking someone who seems already familiar with what they are describing for more information, so I can learn more / share with others / etc.

JumpCrisscross 11y ago
It's a good habit to get into. I can't count the number of times I went searching for a citation to something seemingly obvious only to have my assumptions thrown in my face by the data.
blackrose 11y ago
He was obviously being anecdotal. Asking for a citation on it is like asking for a professional food critic's review on a cheeseburger that your friend just ate and said was "really good." It's pedantic and condescending when OP obviously has some experience with the situation based on their profession.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  Nothing you've just stated negates the fact that personal accounts are only generalizable when backed by additional sources and/or data. If there are 25,000 homeless and an EMT sees 1000 homeless people in a year (which I'd say I'm probably vastly over estimating) in situations where they are in greatest need, then all you have is a limited anecdotal view of a small proportion of the total population of homeless people at the lowest and least dignified point in their lives. It doesn't tell you how they got to be in that situation. It doesn't show you their day to day grind. It doesn't indicate if they always want to be homeless, or you've just seen them when they are feeling defensive or aren't in full control of their faculties. In short, it just shows you that because of the nature of being an EMT, he sees people in dire situations, on occasions that would frustrate anyone viewing the homeless person because of any number of high stress factors, including mental illness but also malnutrition, poor sleep or severe discomfort.
  - blackrose 11y ago
    What is the point of being this pedantic? He said: in my experience, most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs and/or contribute to society in manner that will lead them out of "homelessness." Let's look again: in my experience, most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs And again: in my experience In case you missed it: IN MY EXPERIENCE He then goes on to explain his experience! It's called an anecdote. It doesn't mean it's generalizable. It means it's a data point, like saying a cheeseburger is "good." I don't preface every subjective, anecdotal statement with, "In my personal experience, but without citation or empirical data to back it up." He said all he needed, to where if you're asking for citation, you either lack reading comprehension skills or are just being a dick.
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      Your own reading comprehension seems rather lacking. All that was being said was that it would to good to get empirical data to see if the anecdotal evidence presented is backed up - it's good to validate the perceptions of the person on the coal face. Nobody is being dickish here, though you are getting very close.

jff 11y ago

Because on HN it's considered poor form to say "I think you're full of shit" or "I don't like what you're saying", instead it's better to say "got a source?". It casts doubt on the truthfulness or provenance of the original poster's assertion, while still looking polite.

maratd 11y ago
I'm well aware of why people do it. It's rude regardless. If you disagree with someone either use those little arrows next to the post, make a counter-argument, or STFU. Posting "you're full of shit" or "citation needed" is lazy and rude. You don't want to speak up with something more sensible? Fine. That's why those little arrows next to the comment exist. Don't post rude garbage instead.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  It's rude to use [citation needed] to belittle another person. It's certainly unacceptable to tell someone they're full of shit. It's also rude to tell someone to shut the fuck up. It's not rude to question assumptions or to ask where someone gets their data from. The voting system is good on HN, but it's limited. If you post something controversial, but possibly accurate, then if only people who don't like what you say vote you down, then it just shows that people don't like what you say. If you write something popular but kind of dodgy, then you'll get voted up significantly - and given nobody but yourself can see your score then your comment just shows in normal font weight. Those who vote it down can get it to a score of 1, and nobody will be any the wiser. So the vote mechanism is very good here, and very effective, but it doesn't necessarily improve discourse. Nor does it force people to justify their views. Nor does it help progress understanding. I've often been asked to provide a source for my views. I'm always happy to do so. Heck, there have even been a few times it has forced me to concede that my view wasn't well thought out. If anything, bring politely questioned helped me more than it did the questioner. Other times there has been the pleasant and surprising occassion where the questioner thanked me for my sources and agreed that I was probably correct. That's hardly "rude garbage".
  - 11y ago