5 ms·

I thought modern airliners could pretty much fly themselves, or is takeoff and landing outside the scope of the automation?

rangibaby 11y ago
A pilot licensed to fly smaller aircraft wasn't able to save this plane: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522
- VLM 11y ago
  Non-pilots think all the pilot training is learning to fly. Pilots know flying is very easy, all the training is learning how to survive uncountable emergencies and failures. And economics and judgment and experience and doing it smoothly and a few other things. Landing a large jet is very easy in a simulator. A random untrained person saving a plane that's out of fuel is impossible.
  - EvanPlaice 11y ago
    Exactly! Black box data is retrieved analyzed and scenarios are prepared for pilots to train against. I used to work in flight simulation and have flown a few different types. I designed the UI for the malfunctions/preselect system and while we had the head pilot trainer in to test the system one day we decided to mess with him. We gave him a 35kt cross wind. Failed 2 out of 3 of the engines, as well as various hydraulics systems. Aside from the hilarity of watching the simulator engineer following orders to hand-crank the imaginary landing gear, the pilot made a near perfect landing without breaking a sweat. I've had enough times in sim cockpits to confidently say that I could land a commercial aircraft if necessary. I can also confidently say that it would take me a dozen attempts to make that landing without crashing. Let alone a clean almost textbook touch down.
  - chmars 11y ago
    It depends, professional pilots often botch landings and swear in the cockpit although these landings are still safe (enough) … A landing attempt by a passenger as shown in the YouTube video would probably end with a crash since some manual flying is involved in the end. It is very unlikely that a passenger would getting the controls right at the first time and he (or she) would certainly not be able to perform a go-around. Autoland would be more helpful. In the worst cased, an aircraft can land without flaps and without 'three greens' if the runway is long enough with a high probability of survival for the passengers. Speed control is of course important but the correct speeds for a zero-flap landing could be given from the ground via radio.
    - JonAtkinson 11y ago
      "They say a good landing is one where no one gets hurt, and a great landing is one where they can re-use the plane." Hat-tip: Cabin Pressure, BBC R4
- JorgeGT 11y ago
  Well, he was fighting hypoxia and one engine flamed out as he entered the cabin, the other 10 min later. There's no way to know if he could have landed with ATC support if oxygen and fuel were nominal. A brave guy in any case.
- ptha 11y ago
  Unfortunately he didn't have a lot of time before the engines flamed out: At 11:49, flight attendant Andreas Prodromou entered the cockpit and sat down in the captain's seat, having remained conscious by using a portable oxygen supply. Prodromou held a UK Commercial Pilot License, but was not qualified to fly the Boeing 737. Crash investigators concluded that Prodromou's experience was insufficient for him to gain control of the aircraft under the circumstances. Prodromou waved at the F16s very briefly, but almost as soon as he entered the cockpit, the left engine flamed out due to fuel exhaustion, the plane left the holding pattern and started to descend. Ten minutes after the loss of power from the left engine, the right engine also flamed out, and just before 12:04 the aircraft crashed into hills near Grammatiko. There were no survivors.
JorgeGT 11y ago
Autolanding is possible (no autotaxi out of the runway yet, but in process). You can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSNE3SmYA-8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSNE3SmYA-8 Watch how the autopilot is only disconnected after touchdown and some rollout. However to my knowledge takeoff is outside of the automation scope for the moment, it is the most critical part.
- lucaspiller 11y ago
  Modern airliners have an auto throttle for takeoff, and the V speeds (which will be computed automatically based upon load and weather conditions) audibly tell you when to do important stuff. In simple terms to takeoff you just set the flaps and throttle, push a button, and pull up when told to do so. Once you are a few hundred feet in the air, the autopilot will take over and do the rest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeoff/Go-around_switch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeoff/Go-around_switch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds

rangibaby 11y ago

A pilot licensed to fly smaller aircraft wasn't able to save this plane: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522

VLM 11y ago
Non-pilots think all the pilot training is learning to fly. Pilots know flying is very easy, all the training is learning how to survive uncountable emergencies and failures. And economics and judgment and experience and doing it smoothly and a few other things. Landing a large jet is very easy in a simulator. A random untrained person saving a plane that's out of fuel is impossible.
- EvanPlaice 11y ago
  Exactly! Black box data is retrieved analyzed and scenarios are prepared for pilots to train against. I used to work in flight simulation and have flown a few different types. I designed the UI for the malfunctions/preselect system and while we had the head pilot trainer in to test the system one day we decided to mess with him. We gave him a 35kt cross wind. Failed 2 out of 3 of the engines, as well as various hydraulics systems. Aside from the hilarity of watching the simulator engineer following orders to hand-crank the imaginary landing gear, the pilot made a near perfect landing without breaking a sweat. I've had enough times in sim cockpits to confidently say that I could land a commercial aircraft if necessary. I can also confidently say that it would take me a dozen attempts to make that landing without crashing. Let alone a clean almost textbook touch down.
- chmars 11y ago
  It depends, professional pilots often botch landings and swear in the cockpit although these landings are still safe (enough) … A landing attempt by a passenger as shown in the YouTube video would probably end with a crash since some manual flying is involved in the end. It is very unlikely that a passenger would getting the controls right at the first time and he (or she) would certainly not be able to perform a go-around. Autoland would be more helpful. In the worst cased, an aircraft can land without flaps and without 'three greens' if the runway is long enough with a high probability of survival for the passengers. Speed control is of course important but the correct speeds for a zero-flap landing could be given from the ground via radio.
  - JonAtkinson 11y ago
    "They say a good landing is one where no one gets hurt, and a great landing is one where they can re-use the plane." Hat-tip: Cabin Pressure, BBC R4
JorgeGT 11y ago
Well, he was fighting hypoxia and one engine flamed out as he entered the cabin, the other 10 min later. There's no way to know if he could have landed with ATC support if oxygen and fuel were nominal. A brave guy in any case.
ptha 11y ago
Unfortunately he didn't have a lot of time before the engines flamed out: At 11:49, flight attendant Andreas Prodromou entered the cockpit and sat down in the captain's seat, having remained conscious by using a portable oxygen supply. Prodromou held a UK Commercial Pilot License, but was not qualified to fly the Boeing 737. Crash investigators concluded that Prodromou's experience was insufficient for him to gain control of the aircraft under the circumstances. Prodromou waved at the F16s very briefly, but almost as soon as he entered the cockpit, the left engine flamed out due to fuel exhaustion, the plane left the holding pattern and started to descend. Ten minutes after the loss of power from the left engine, the right engine also flamed out, and just before 12:04 the aircraft crashed into hills near Grammatiko. There were no survivors.

JorgeGT 11y ago

Autolanding is possible (no autotaxi out of the runway yet, but in process). You can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSNE3SmYA-8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSNE3SmYA-8 Watch how the autopilot is only disconnected after touchdown and some rollout. However to my knowledge takeoff is outside of the automation scope for the moment, it is the most critical part.

lucaspiller 11y ago
Modern airliners have an auto throttle for takeoff, and the V speeds (which will be computed automatically based upon load and weather conditions) audibly tell you when to do important stuff. In simple terms to takeoff you just set the flaps and throttle, push a button, and pull up when told to do so. Once you are a few hundred feet in the air, the autopilot will take over and do the rest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeoff/Go-around_switch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeoff/Go-around_switch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds