4 ms·

I'm having trouble following your argument. If something is fun to make, then it is moral? How on earth are those two connected? His argument was that regardle

I'm having trouble following your argument. If something is fun to make, then it is moral? How on earth are those two connected? His argument was that regardless of how much fun it is or how easy it is to do, it is crap, and filling the world with crap is bad from a basic moral standpoint.

coliveira 17y ago
The problem is exactly that it is a moral judgment. You can't apply your moral standards to others. Should be people paying for crappy apps? Should they be paying for porn? Who are we to decide?
- staunch 17y ago
  This is simple moral relativism. Of course we can judge what we, as a community, believe is good and bad behavior.
  - coliveira 17y ago
    Why should we do this, if there is a market that can do an even better job? If there are only crappy products, just create a good one and the market will embrace it -- Just like people buy more Mac laptops than laptops from other brands. No need for moral coercion. Your idea also creates a virtual barrier for people who want to create new stuff -- who cares if the version 1.0 is bad?
    - staunch 17y ago
      You're saying we can't judge people's work. I'm saying we can, should, and do all the time. If someone is spamming viagra ads, or polluting the web with scraped YouTube videos, we can safely call that bad behavior.
      - coliveira 17y ago
        You can, but I don't see a reason unless you feel you are a superior being. I am glad there is a free place called Internet where people can load whatever videos they want, publish their half backed projects, or even try to make a buck or two writing posts about Viagra. -- Great things also happen there from time to time.
        staunch 17y ago
        You won't even say it's bad behavior to send spam email with viagra ads?
    - Psyonic 17y ago
      Because the market doesn't do an even better job. How did the market do in the case of the fake bomb detector? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/head-of-bomb-detector-company-arrested-in-fraud-investigation-1876388.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/head-of-bomb-dete... Or how about preventing the Madoff scandal? The market isn't perfect, and simply "creating a good one" does not guarantee the market will embrace it. Markets work when consumers have (and want) the necessary information to make a good choice. Information overload makes this difficult to acquire. Let's look at in an example in your world: I want to buy a digital camera. There are many, so I'd like to know which one to pick. I go online to read reviews. Unfortunately, in this world, every single review is a paid review (because why not get something for it), or is a review that is essentially paid, because they get a cut from your purchase price. How am I supposed to make an intelligent choice? That example isn't far from reality, by the way. Especially in the "Make money online" industry. Try finding a legitimate review of any of those programs. Every review is overly positive to try and sell you on it so they get paid. Even if you search for "So and so product scam" you'll find an article that is titled "Is so and so product a scam? Find out here", and then they immediately answer, "No. Buy it with my link!"
- Psyonic 17y ago
  "You can't apply your moral standards to others." Of course you can. Are you suggesting that we should limit our opinions of other actions and only discuss legality? He never argued it should be illegal, but he argued we can do better. I fail to see the problem. There was a time when email spam wasn't illegal. Your attitude would have kept us from judging it (Hey, they need to make a buck too! Grandpa needs his viagra, and Nigerian's gotta eat) and ever making it illegal. Note: I realize that "applying your moral standards to others" gets us people hating gays, etc. But the alternative of not applying your moral judgment to anyone but yourself is also ridiculous. That would mean you can't call out lying politicians, greedy corporations, "scamville," or anything else that most people don't support.

coliveira 17y ago

The problem is exactly that it is a moral judgment. You can't apply your moral standards to others. Should be people paying for crappy apps? Should they be paying for porn? Who are we to decide?

staunch 17y ago
This is simple moral relativism. Of course we can judge what we, as a community, believe is good and bad behavior.
- coliveira 17y ago
  Why should we do this, if there is a market that can do an even better job? If there are only crappy products, just create a good one and the market will embrace it -- Just like people buy more Mac laptops than laptops from other brands. No need for moral coercion. Your idea also creates a virtual barrier for people who want to create new stuff -- who cares if the version 1.0 is bad?
  - staunch 17y ago
    You're saying we can't judge people's work. I'm saying we can, should, and do all the time. If someone is spamming viagra ads, or polluting the web with scraped YouTube videos, we can safely call that bad behavior.
    - coliveira 17y ago
      You can, but I don't see a reason unless you feel you are a superior being. I am glad there is a free place called Internet where people can load whatever videos they want, publish their half backed projects, or even try to make a buck or two writing posts about Viagra. -- Great things also happen there from time to time.
      - staunch 17y ago
        You won't even say it's bad behavior to send spam email with viagra ads?
  - Psyonic 17y ago
    Because the market doesn't do an even better job. How did the market do in the case of the fake bomb detector? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/head-of-bomb-detector-company-arrested-in-fraud-investigation-1876388.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/head-of-bomb-dete... Or how about preventing the Madoff scandal? The market isn't perfect, and simply "creating a good one" does not guarantee the market will embrace it. Markets work when consumers have (and want) the necessary information to make a good choice. Information overload makes this difficult to acquire. Let's look at in an example in your world: I want to buy a digital camera. There are many, so I'd like to know which one to pick. I go online to read reviews. Unfortunately, in this world, every single review is a paid review (because why not get something for it), or is a review that is essentially paid, because they get a cut from your purchase price. How am I supposed to make an intelligent choice? That example isn't far from reality, by the way. Especially in the "Make money online" industry. Try finding a legitimate review of any of those programs. Every review is overly positive to try and sell you on it so they get paid. Even if you search for "So and so product scam" you'll find an article that is titled "Is so and so product a scam? Find out here", and then they immediately answer, "No. Buy it with my link!"
Psyonic 17y ago
"You can't apply your moral standards to others." Of course you can. Are you suggesting that we should limit our opinions of other actions and only discuss legality? He never argued it should be illegal, but he argued we can do better. I fail to see the problem. There was a time when email spam wasn't illegal. Your attitude would have kept us from judging it (Hey, they need to make a buck too! Grandpa needs his viagra, and Nigerian's gotta eat) and ever making it illegal. Note: I realize that "applying your moral standards to others" gets us people hating gays, etc. But the alternative of not applying your moral judgment to anyone but yourself is also ridiculous. That would mean you can't call out lying politicians, greedy corporations, "scamville," or anything else that most people don't support.