4 ms·

I like Flask a lot, but I take issue with: > It doesn't force a data model / DB onto me - I can just plug in whatever I have (unlike Django). Django doesn't f

by waprin 11y ago

I like Flask a lot, but I take issue with: > It doesn't force a data model / DB onto me - I can just plug in whatever I have (unlike Django). Django doesn't force a data model onto you anymore than Flask does - nobody is forcing you to use the Django ORM. Any database code you write for a Flask app could be re-used in a Django app. What the Django ORM does do is allow you to write portable apps and extensions. For example, suppose someone writes an extension for Flask that uses SQLAlchemy. If I'm writing a Flask app and only have a Mongo database available, I can't use that extension. On the other hand, if someone uses the Django ORM to write that extension, as long as I have a Django backend for my database, I can use their extension. It abstracts away the underlying datastore. Besides just which database you are using, you can also write a variety of code that works with Django models. Now granted, this abstraction can be severely leaky and flawed at times, but it's still quite powerful overall. Django provides a conventional, standard way to address the issue of interacting with data in a general way. Again, nobody is forcing you to use it, because you can just bypass the ORM and write your database code directly. It's just a powerful paradigm if you do embrace it.

m_mueller 11y ago
I agree that you can use Django without the ORM, but IMO it makes it kind of pointless - what advantage would you get over something more lightweight? The reason why I'd use Django over Flask is if I want to use at least a few out-of-the box solutions or extensions, say a standard Admin interface. However, I'm just the type who prefers building this stuff either myself or using standard components that are decoupled from everything else as much as possible. If an underlying framework allows me to build stuff in a tidy and quick way, that's what I'm going to use. So it's not just about what you can do, it's about how the ecosystem around that tool works.
- waprin 11y ago
  It's obviously to a large degree personal preference, opinionated frameworks vs microframeworks. The reason why I would still use Django even if I wasn't using the ORM is because 1) I'm still probably using the ORM. I was just noting that for any data that the ORM doesn't fit well, you don't have to use it. 2) Why is Flask "lighter weight" than Django? From my perspective, as soon as you start writing a real app, you end up reinventing all these basic things like file layout using your own conventions, instead of a standard one that people are familiar with. The mental burden of figuring out your special snowflake conventions makes it 'heavier' weight to me. But again, personal preference :) Flask is obviously much better for really simple stuff, and does provide a great framework for extensions, even if I still lean towards Django.
  - angvp 11y ago
    I think is a myth than Flask is lighter than Django, in my experience I had a Django app and a Flask app we started with Flask because we believed that myth, in the end we had an application like 10 times bigger in code, we refactored in less than a week and the performance was even better for Django than Flask app. I know this is not a Flask vs Django post, but I woudln't use something than is almost 3 years ago from the last release and they're promising a new release from almost a year.
    - equalarrow 11y ago
      Correct. I'm working with a flask app now and the tendency was to have a few files with thousands of lines of code - this encapsulates about 25-30 api endpoints along with all the necessary imports, etc at the top. Including sql and the usual suspects. I think flask is great, like sinatra, for small apps. But I would never consider it for 'big' apps that represented more than half a dozen api endpoints and some sort of in-depth feature set. Above that size, unless it's super simple, you'll pay the price in tech debt. While our api has worked up until this point, we're gonna scrap it for a Rails api-only app because we need convention + orm + other things to scale not just the app, but the team. There probably is a way to do this in flask, but 95% of our team are Rails guys, so it just makes more sense to go with q company wide maintainable system vs. what's there now. For small/single devs working on small projects, flask (and sinatra) are great.
      - m_mueller 11y ago
        I have to wonder - did you try the Flask Blueprint facility? Furthermore you don't have to use the decorator approach to define the endpoints, there is a class based initialization (add_url_rule) to which you can just pass a View class. These are AFAIK the main two ways to modularize Flask code.
    - infecto 11y ago
      Gonna have to agree with you. If I remember correctly the overhead is similar between Django and Flask. I love how quickly I can write a hello world app but I find that if I am building any kind of application that requires auth, db interaction, crud like actions, it ends up being easier in the long run to just run with Django. It may be because I do not use flask enough either. I spent a little over a year working on a production flask app with a small team and I still feel no where closer in solidifying best practices and design patterns with flask.

by waprin 11y ago

m_mueller 11y ago

I agree that you can use Django without the ORM, but IMO it makes it kind of pointless - what advantage would you get over something more lightweight? The reason why I'd use Django over Flask is if I want to use at least a few out-of-the box solutions or extensions, say a standard Admin interface. However, I'm just the type who prefers building this stuff either myself or using standard components that are decoupled from everything else as much as possible. If an underlying framework allows me to build stuff in a tidy and quick way, that's what I'm going to use. So it's not just about what you can do, it's about how the ecosystem around that tool works.

waprin 11y ago
It's obviously to a large degree personal preference, opinionated frameworks vs microframeworks. The reason why I would still use Django even if I wasn't using the ORM is because 1) I'm still probably using the ORM. I was just noting that for any data that the ORM doesn't fit well, you don't have to use it. 2) Why is Flask "lighter weight" than Django? From my perspective, as soon as you start writing a real app, you end up reinventing all these basic things like file layout using your own conventions, instead of a standard one that people are familiar with. The mental burden of figuring out your special snowflake conventions makes it 'heavier' weight to me. But again, personal preference :) Flask is obviously much better for really simple stuff, and does provide a great framework for extensions, even if I still lean towards Django.
- angvp 11y ago
  I think is a myth than Flask is lighter than Django, in my experience I had a Django app and a Flask app we started with Flask because we believed that myth, in the end we had an application like 10 times bigger in code, we refactored in less than a week and the performance was even better for Django than Flask app. I know this is not a Flask vs Django post, but I woudln't use something than is almost 3 years ago from the last release and they're promising a new release from almost a year.
  - equalarrow 11y ago
    Correct. I'm working with a flask app now and the tendency was to have a few files with thousands of lines of code - this encapsulates about 25-30 api endpoints along with all the necessary imports, etc at the top. Including sql and the usual suspects. I think flask is great, like sinatra, for small apps. But I would never consider it for 'big' apps that represented more than half a dozen api endpoints and some sort of in-depth feature set. Above that size, unless it's super simple, you'll pay the price in tech debt. While our api has worked up until this point, we're gonna scrap it for a Rails api-only app because we need convention + orm + other things to scale not just the app, but the team. There probably is a way to do this in flask, but 95% of our team are Rails guys, so it just makes more sense to go with q company wide maintainable system vs. what's there now. For small/single devs working on small projects, flask (and sinatra) are great.
    - m_mueller 11y ago
      I have to wonder - did you try the Flask Blueprint facility? Furthermore you don't have to use the decorator approach to define the endpoints, there is a class based initialization (add_url_rule) to which you can just pass a View class. These are AFAIK the main two ways to modularize Flask code.
  - infecto 11y ago
    Gonna have to agree with you. If I remember correctly the overhead is similar between Django and Flask. I love how quickly I can write a hello world app but I find that if I am building any kind of application that requires auth, db interaction, crud like actions, it ends up being easier in the long run to just run with Django. It may be because I do not use flask enough either. I spent a little over a year working on a production flask app with a small team and I still feel no where closer in solidifying best practices and design patterns with flask.