4 ms·

I remember reading a sci-fi novel that impressed me as a child about the wife of a recently deceased composer corrupting a politician to not vote for a proposal

I remember reading a sci-fi novel that impressed me as a child about the wife of a recently deceased composer corrupting a politician to not vote for a proposal to extend the copyright on the basis that there are only a limitited number of possible "interesting" combinations of notes. Hence an unlimited copyright is like a death sentence to the creativity of all future musicians. I believe that the actual limit of 50 years is already too much.

goodness 17y ago
I wonder why there aren't copyright trolls similar to patent trolls. They could just release huge libraries of computer generated music with all of these interesting combinations of notes. Then do automated comparisons of popular songs to find "violations." Could also be another one of those cases of getting an absurd law revoked by exercising it.
- lmkg 17y ago
  One of the main differences between copyrights and patents is that in order to infringe on a copyright, you have to be willfully imitating it. Coincidentally creating an identical work is not copyright violation if you didn't know about it.
  - goodness 17y ago
    I'm no lawyer, but that doesn't seem consistent with any other law in the US. Ignorance is never an excuse. Also, the first result from a google search for 'copyright infringement willful' yields this: http://www.ladas.com/NII/CopyrightInfringement.html which says: 'Copyright infringement is determined without regard to the intent or the state of mind of the infringer; "innocent" infringement is infringement nonetheless.' As with patents though, I think the intent does play a role in determining damages.
    - gojomo 17y ago
      But coincidence is not copying. The quote you've excerpted is when someone actually copies something, but thought it was alright to do so.
    - cduan 17y ago
      Ignorance of the law is never an excuse, but ignorance of the facts is frequently an excuse. "Innocent" copyright infringement can occur when you think it is legal to copy something (e.g. the copyright has expired, it is fair use, etc.), but it turns out that you are mistaken. However, for copyright to apply, you actually have to copy something. If you coincidentally come up with the exact same song that someone else wrote already, but you never heard about the other person's song, you would not infringe copyright in the other person's song. In contrast, patents infringement is "strict liability," meaning that you can infringe a patent without even knowing that the patent exists.
      - goodness 17y ago
        If this is really the case, then it seems to be a loophole for a reverse scenario. You write a computer algorithm to generate vast collections of music. Since the computer, pretty much by definition, is ignorant of other music then you can claim copyright over everything it generates. Wait for it to produce "copies" of popular melodies and then you can publish cheap clones or license popular songs to people for a fraction of the cost of the originals. If there is an objection that the computer isn't considered a person, then form a corporation and copyright the songs to the corporation. The corporation is equally ignorant of any other music. Human judgment is only exercised by a second corporation that searches the first corporations extensive database to find popular melodies to license.
        gojomo 17y ago
        Courts are not computers; they apply subtle judgments based on a total reading of scenario. If your intent was to discover and then market tunes identical to popular copyrighted tunes, a court can view the totality of your system as 'copying' existing works. If your two corporations exist to obscure the real intent of the people behind them, a court can treat them as co-defendants.
htsh 17y ago
I remember this too -- saw it on reddit, had a title that had something to do with elephant's memory or something to that. Anyone know exactly what this was? Edit: found it! melancholy elephants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melancholy_Elephants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melancholy_Elephants
- LucaDuval 17y ago
  Thank you, I couldn't remember the title. Here it is if anybody want to read it: http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200011/0671319744___1.htm http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200011/0671319744___1.htm It is strange the way in which a random quote stays in our mind for years, I still remembered the following almost verbatim. "Artists have been deluding themselves for centuries with the notion that they create. In fact they do nothing of the sort. They discover. Inherent in the nature of reality are a number of combinations of musical tones that will be perceived as pleasing by a human central nervous system. For millennia we have been discovering them, implicit in the universe—and telling ourselves that we `created' them. To create implies infinite possibility, to discover implies finite possibility. As a species I think we will react poorly to having our noses rubbed in the fact that we are discoverers and not creators."
  - yannis 17y ago
    This is very similar to the philosophical implications that all mathematics are out there and we are just discovering them. In this light one can always use the example of the infinite monkeys typing random characters and producing all the works of Shakespeare. If you do the Maths though you will need more time than the predicted life-span of our Universe. Thanks for the link though very interesting.
  - wglb 17y ago
    Along this line, perhaps you have seen this Elizabeth Gilbert video: http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html
yannis 17y ago
50 years is definitely excessive. One can argue that for very successful authors/artists it can provide income for heirs. In most cases it only benefits publishers. 30 years sounds like a reasonable period for me.
- ricree 17y ago
  It seems to me that a reasonable compromise would be to make automatic copyright a relatively short term deal in the neighborhood of 15-25 years. But at the same time, allow copyright holders to pay a fee to extend the copyright for a further term. If the fee went up on each term, it would encourage owners to only maintain their hold on particularly marketable properties, allowing the rest to lapse into public domain. As a side benefit, this would go a long way towards reducing the ambiguity that plagues older copyrighted works that don't have a clear owner, but still haven't reached a date where their copyright has expired. Either there would be a clear chain of documentation from when the rights were extended, or else you could safely assume the copyright had lapsed.
ZeroGravitas 17y ago
In the UK the Gowers review did some economic analysis and found that the current length (50 years) was too long to benefit the UK economy. They didn't bother trying to argue that point though, as they were too busy trying to prevent the length from being increased to 95 years, which was being lobbied for strongly by various interests. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gowers_Review_of_Intellectual_Property http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gowers_Review_of_Intellectual_P...
forinti 17y ago
I wouldn't mind it being 50 years if it were non-transferable. It is, after all, an incentive to create, not to seek rent.

goodness 17y ago

I wonder why there aren't copyright trolls similar to patent trolls. They could just release huge libraries of computer generated music with all of these interesting combinations of notes. Then do automated comparisons of popular songs to find "violations." Could also be another one of those cases of getting an absurd law revoked by exercising it.

lmkg 17y ago
One of the main differences between copyrights and patents is that in order to infringe on a copyright, you have to be willfully imitating it. Coincidentally creating an identical work is not copyright violation if you didn't know about it.
- goodness 17y ago
  I'm no lawyer, but that doesn't seem consistent with any other law in the US. Ignorance is never an excuse. Also, the first result from a google search for 'copyright infringement willful' yields this: http://www.ladas.com/NII/CopyrightInfringement.html which says: 'Copyright infringement is determined without regard to the intent or the state of mind of the infringer; "innocent" infringement is infringement nonetheless.' As with patents though, I think the intent does play a role in determining damages.
  - gojomo 17y ago
    But coincidence is not copying. The quote you've excerpted is when someone actually copies something, but thought it was alright to do so.
  - cduan 17y ago
    Ignorance of the law is never an excuse, but ignorance of the facts is frequently an excuse. "Innocent" copyright infringement can occur when you think it is legal to copy something (e.g. the copyright has expired, it is fair use, etc.), but it turns out that you are mistaken. However, for copyright to apply, you actually have to copy something. If you coincidentally come up with the exact same song that someone else wrote already, but you never heard about the other person's song, you would not infringe copyright in the other person's song. In contrast, patents infringement is "strict liability," meaning that you can infringe a patent without even knowing that the patent exists.
    - goodness 17y ago
      If this is really the case, then it seems to be a loophole for a reverse scenario. You write a computer algorithm to generate vast collections of music. Since the computer, pretty much by definition, is ignorant of other music then you can claim copyright over everything it generates. Wait for it to produce "copies" of popular melodies and then you can publish cheap clones or license popular songs to people for a fraction of the cost of the originals. If there is an objection that the computer isn't considered a person, then form a corporation and copyright the songs to the corporation. The corporation is equally ignorant of any other music. Human judgment is only exercised by a second corporation that searches the first corporations extensive database to find popular melodies to license.
      - gojomo 17y ago
        Courts are not computers; they apply subtle judgments based on a total reading of scenario. If your intent was to discover and then market tunes identical to popular copyrighted tunes, a court can view the totality of your system as 'copying' existing works. If your two corporations exist to obscure the real intent of the people behind them, a court can treat them as co-defendants.

htsh 17y ago

I remember this too -- saw it on reddit, had a title that had something to do with elephant's memory or something to that. Anyone know exactly what this was? Edit: found it! melancholy elephants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melancholy_Elephants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melancholy_Elephants

LucaDuval 17y ago
Thank you, I couldn't remember the title. Here it is if anybody want to read it: http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200011/0671319744___1.htm http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200011/0671319744___1.htm It is strange the way in which a random quote stays in our mind for years, I still remembered the following almost verbatim. "Artists have been deluding themselves for centuries with the notion that they create. In fact they do nothing of the sort. They discover. Inherent in the nature of reality are a number of combinations of musical tones that will be perceived as pleasing by a human central nervous system. For millennia we have been discovering them, implicit in the universe—and telling ourselves that we `created' them. To create implies infinite possibility, to discover implies finite possibility. As a species I think we will react poorly to having our noses rubbed in the fact that we are discoverers and not creators."
- yannis 17y ago
  This is very similar to the philosophical implications that all mathematics are out there and we are just discovering them. In this light one can always use the example of the infinite monkeys typing random characters and producing all the works of Shakespeare. If you do the Maths though you will need more time than the predicted life-span of our Universe. Thanks for the link though very interesting.
- wglb 17y ago
  Along this line, perhaps you have seen this Elizabeth Gilbert video: http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html

yannis 17y ago

50 years is definitely excessive. One can argue that for very successful authors/artists it can provide income for heirs. In most cases it only benefits publishers. 30 years sounds like a reasonable period for me.

ricree 17y ago
It seems to me that a reasonable compromise would be to make automatic copyright a relatively short term deal in the neighborhood of 15-25 years. But at the same time, allow copyright holders to pay a fee to extend the copyright for a further term. If the fee went up on each term, it would encourage owners to only maintain their hold on particularly marketable properties, allowing the rest to lapse into public domain. As a side benefit, this would go a long way towards reducing the ambiguity that plagues older copyrighted works that don't have a clear owner, but still haven't reached a date where their copyright has expired. Either there would be a clear chain of documentation from when the rights were extended, or else you could safely assume the copyright had lapsed.

ZeroGravitas 17y ago

In the UK the Gowers review did some economic analysis and found that the current length (50 years) was too long to benefit the UK economy. They didn't bother trying to argue that point though, as they were too busy trying to prevent the length from being increased to 95 years, which was being lobbied for strongly by various interests. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gowers_Review_of_Intellectual_Property http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gowers_Review_of_Intellectual_P...

forinti 17y ago

I wouldn't mind it being 50 years if it were non-transferable. It is, after all, an incentive to create, not to seek rent.