4 ms·

> It may be time to look at applying antitrust laws to rental real estate. Or better yet, look at repealing or modifying the laws that keep the supply of housi

> It may be time to look at applying antitrust laws to rental real estate. Or better yet, look at repealing or modifying the laws that keep the supply of housing from rising along with the demand.

billions 11y ago
This is the better solution. California charges $160,000 in taxes per home before it's built. Not to mention extremely restrictive zoning laws.
- enjo 11y ago
  Zoning laws are actually by and large a relatively modern idea, with the oldest zoning regulations in America in place for only 100 years, with the aggressive zoning codes we have in place today generally only stretching back to the 70's and 80's. Aggressive zoning, by my estimation, is a bad influence on housing costs. It's restrictive (by it's nature) and generally serves one and only one purpose : keeping neighborhoods from becoming more dense. As our population continues to grow people have to live somewhere, and we have to recognize that the only way to organize our cities for that growth involves density levels that are in many cases double or even triple what they are today. Until then housing costs will continue to soar.
  - SilasX 11y ago
    >Zoning laws are actually by and large a relatively modern idea, with the oldest zoning regulations in America in place for only 100 years, with the aggressive zoning codes we have in place today generally only stretching back to the 70's and 80's. Not even close. In most of the developed world, you can't turn a home in a residential neighborhood into a slaughterhouse. I think you mean "density restrictions", a subset of zoning, not zoning per se. (Though even there I'm suspicious: I can go to a low-density part of Nuremberg and buy 100 contiguous houses and replace them with a skyscraper? I'm thinking "no", regardless of whether they formalize the rejection as "because zoning".)
    - enjo 11y ago
      http://www.citylab.com/politics/2012/06/birth-zoning-codes-history/2275/ http://www.citylab.com/politics/2012/06/birth-zoning-codes-h...
      - SilasX 11y ago
        I know. Something under the name "zoning" is recent. My point was that the general concept (municipal governments not just letting you build whatever you feel like because of the surrounding area) is much older and more universal.
        enjo 11y ago
        Ugh. According to like the first paragraph: "Before zoning, cities mostly regulated what could be built through nuisance laws. If someone didn't like how their neighbor was using their property, they could haul them to trial and let a judge decide what to do about it." That's not zoning by any modern definition. It was piecemeal lawsuits with varying levels of effectiveness. There was no comprehensive "you can build this thing here, but not here" plan in place. If you read further into the article you'll see that in Manhattan it was the inability to control what was being built that directly led to the adoption of an actual zoning plan. So there was a (long) period in American cities in which people were generally building whatever they wanted wherever they liked. This is further outlined in a book I really like "Dead End: Suburban Sprawl and the Rebirth of American Urbanism" which talks about how zoning codes and covenants conspired together to produce the modern American suburb.
        SilasX 11y ago
        I have similar frustration at the miscommunication. You're making a very subtle distinction that was not conveyed by your original overbroad claim "zoning is a recent American thing", and which you should have clarified the first time around rather than only after someone pointed out clear counterexamples to the literal meaning of your claim. Zoning in modern parlance is understood to mean "stuff in this zone can't be built or operated like this". That is the only "zoning" concept relevant to the discussion, and it is universal in the developed world, and has been for ages. It is functionally zoning in that same parlance, regardless if it's an explicit code, or simply a common-law-like system of precedents of "well, everyone knows the planning board or the complaint system will reject your skyscraper or slaughterhouse in the residential zone". To the extent that you're making an interesting, relevant distinction, it now seems to be about one particular kind of zoning, that of master plans for future construction that broke sharply from tradition and introduced unusually sharp barriers between residences and commerce. Sure, that's a recent American thing. But it's not at all conveyed by the understanding of "zoning" that existed in the discussion that you attached the remark to.
Tsagadai 11y ago
Have you been to China lately? Many Chinese cities are what happens when you allow supply to meet demand. Prices don't necessarily come down with increased supply because it also increases speculation (and contrary to economists believes we are not rational actors). Demand also follows supply, if you increase supply there is often an increase in demand because now people can move to $desirable_location.
- seizethecheese 11y ago
  > Many Chinese cities are what happens when you allow supply to meet demand. Um, no. Chinese cities are a direct result of government policies to boost GDP through construction and are the supply of housing has little to do with market forces.
  - rahimnathwani 11y ago
    You are both right.
  - ThrustVectoring 11y ago
    IMO it's more because of Chinese capital controls: buying an apartment that sits empty for fifteen years is literally the best option they have for turning money today into something valuable when they're old and cannot work.
- rahimnathwani 11y ago
  But that speculation only affects the value of a property. It doesn't affect rent levels, which are determined by short term supply/demand. The increased supply may not make it easier to buy, but it sure makes it cheaper to rent a place.
  - Tsagadai 11y ago
    Speculation affects rent because many buyers have debt. If an owner can raise rents that cover the interest and costs, they will; that is their baseline for how low they will go. Large amounts of speculation will increase rents even with increases supply because owners need to service their debts (up until the point where renters won't pay and owners default).

> It may be time to look at applying antitrust laws to rental real estate. Or better yet, look at repealing or modifying the laws that keep the supply of housing from rising along with the demand.

billions 11y ago

This is the better solution. California charges $160,000 in taxes per home before it's built. Not to mention extremely restrictive zoning laws.

enjo 11y ago
Zoning laws are actually by and large a relatively modern idea, with the oldest zoning regulations in America in place for only 100 years, with the aggressive zoning codes we have in place today generally only stretching back to the 70's and 80's. Aggressive zoning, by my estimation, is a bad influence on housing costs. It's restrictive (by it's nature) and generally serves one and only one purpose : keeping neighborhoods from becoming more dense. As our population continues to grow people have to live somewhere, and we have to recognize that the only way to organize our cities for that growth involves density levels that are in many cases double or even triple what they are today. Until then housing costs will continue to soar.
- SilasX 11y ago
  >Zoning laws are actually by and large a relatively modern idea, with the oldest zoning regulations in America in place for only 100 years, with the aggressive zoning codes we have in place today generally only stretching back to the 70's and 80's. Not even close. In most of the developed world, you can't turn a home in a residential neighborhood into a slaughterhouse. I think you mean "density restrictions", a subset of zoning, not zoning per se. (Though even there I'm suspicious: I can go to a low-density part of Nuremberg and buy 100 contiguous houses and replace them with a skyscraper? I'm thinking "no", regardless of whether they formalize the rejection as "because zoning".)
  - enjo 11y ago
    http://www.citylab.com/politics/2012/06/birth-zoning-codes-history/2275/ http://www.citylab.com/politics/2012/06/birth-zoning-codes-h...
    - SilasX 11y ago
      I know. Something under the name "zoning" is recent. My point was that the general concept (municipal governments not just letting you build whatever you feel like because of the surrounding area) is much older and more universal.
      - enjo 11y ago
        Ugh. According to like the first paragraph: "Before zoning, cities mostly regulated what could be built through nuisance laws. If someone didn't like how their neighbor was using their property, they could haul them to trial and let a judge decide what to do about it." That's not zoning by any modern definition. It was piecemeal lawsuits with varying levels of effectiveness. There was no comprehensive "you can build this thing here, but not here" plan in place. If you read further into the article you'll see that in Manhattan it was the inability to control what was being built that directly led to the adoption of an actual zoning plan. So there was a (long) period in American cities in which people were generally building whatever they wanted wherever they liked. This is further outlined in a book I really like "Dead End: Suburban Sprawl and the Rebirth of American Urbanism" which talks about how zoning codes and covenants conspired together to produce the modern American suburb.
        SilasX 11y ago
        I have similar frustration at the miscommunication. You're making a very subtle distinction that was not conveyed by your original overbroad claim "zoning is a recent American thing", and which you should have clarified the first time around rather than only after someone pointed out clear counterexamples to the literal meaning of your claim. Zoning in modern parlance is understood to mean "stuff in this zone can't be built or operated like this". That is the only "zoning" concept relevant to the discussion, and it is universal in the developed world, and has been for ages. It is functionally zoning in that same parlance, regardless if it's an explicit code, or simply a common-law-like system of precedents of "well, everyone knows the planning board or the complaint system will reject your skyscraper or slaughterhouse in the residential zone". To the extent that you're making an interesting, relevant distinction, it now seems to be about one particular kind of zoning, that of master plans for future construction that broke sharply from tradition and introduced unusually sharp barriers between residences and commerce. Sure, that's a recent American thing. But it's not at all conveyed by the understanding of "zoning" that existed in the discussion that you attached the remark to.

Tsagadai 11y ago

Have you been to China lately? Many Chinese cities are what happens when you allow supply to meet demand. Prices don't necessarily come down with increased supply because it also increases speculation (and contrary to economists believes we are not rational actors). Demand also follows supply, if you increase supply there is often an increase in demand because now people can move to $desirable_location.

seizethecheese 11y ago
> Many Chinese cities are what happens when you allow supply to meet demand. Um, no. Chinese cities are a direct result of government policies to boost GDP through construction and are the supply of housing has little to do with market forces.
- rahimnathwani 11y ago
  You are both right.
- ThrustVectoring 11y ago
  IMO it's more because of Chinese capital controls: buying an apartment that sits empty for fifteen years is literally the best option they have for turning money today into something valuable when they're old and cannot work.
rahimnathwani 11y ago
But that speculation only affects the value of a property. It doesn't affect rent levels, which are determined by short term supply/demand. The increased supply may not make it easier to buy, but it sure makes it cheaper to rent a place.
- Tsagadai 11y ago
  Speculation affects rent because many buyers have debt. If an owner can raise rents that cover the interest and costs, they will; that is their baseline for how low they will go. Large amounts of speculation will increase rents even with increases supply because owners need to service their debts (up until the point where renters won't pay and owners default).