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Yet another reason why we can't have nice stuff. Sigh.

by rbobby 11y ago

CydeWeys 11y ago
I have a two-factor auth device that requires that I physically activate it by touching it in a certain way. Why the hell aren't contactless credit/debit cards similar? Why should I need to keep them in a Faraday wallet when they shouldn't be active except in those few second windows when I explicitly want them to be?
- superuser2 11y ago
  There is no "point" to Contactless if you have to take the card out and touch it. At that point you may as well swipe it. Contactless as an idea is probably ill-conceived though.
  - tonylemesmer 11y ago
    Its very, very convenient. More-so than cash. 1. I don't have to carry cash 2. I don't have to go to the bank to get cash 3. I don't have to count the cash when paying 4. No change to worry about. 5. Transaction logs via bank statement The downside that this (OP) problem illustrates does need sorting and I was very sceptical of contactless before I used it, but its quite nice.
    - superuser2 11y ago
      Most credit and debit cards are not contactless and can only be read when inserted into a reader. Why not use one of those?
      - tonylemesmer 11y ago
        These contactless cards can also be used on TFL (Transport for London) Underground entry points, directly debiting your bank account. There is no mechanical degradation associated with using a contactless card whereas in my experience swiping the mag-stripe is problematic. However as many have pointed out, there are potentially a boat load of skimming issues.
      - takluyver 11y ago
        In the UK, most new debit cards at least do have contactless payment. I'm not sure about credit cards, but it's probably the same.
  - samwillis 11y ago
    I think the "point" of contactless is to make the transactions quicker. Where it used to (in the UK) take 30 seconds to put your card in the chip and pin machine, enter your pin number and wait for the transaction to be confirmed, now its literally 3 seconds. Over the course of a year that is a massive time saving for the retailer and so a cost saving (less staff). With chip and pin the customer was liable for all transactions when their pin number was used. It was your responsibility to ensure it wasn't exposed. Now with contactless there is no risk to the customer, the bank/retailer takes on the full risk of fraud for contactless payments. You will not be out of pocket for a fraudulent contactless transaction. This is why contactless transaction are limited to £30 (initially was £20), it limits the bank/retailers potential exposure to contactless fraud, its also handily set to just about the average card transaction in the UK.
    - superuser2 11y ago
      Interesting. In the US most businesses use magnetic stripe readers which take ~1 second from swipe to approval.
      - josephmx 11y ago
        We stopped using that for lack of security, plus I think signing the receipt (and carbon copy) is time consuming, right?
        VLM 11y ago
        I don't do much legacy brick and mortar CC shopping anymore, but it seems completely random at Home Depot and Target if they want my signature or not. Maybe after X transactions in the last Y days they no longer need a sig. With a possible side dish of Z percent or lower of transactions are fraudulent from this store.
      - gambiting 11y ago
        You can use swipe in some places in the UK, but then you have to wait for the receipt to print, the cashier to find a pen, you have to sign it and the cashier has to verify it, click on the terminal that they did, and get a final receipt printed. It's even more hassle than typing in a pin.
- matthewmacleod 11y ago
  In that sense, wouldn't it be just as easy to insert the card into a POS device and supply the PIN? The point of contactless is to make it less bother to use cards. One of the tradeoffs for that is reducing the security – it's sort of a necessary condition. Losses are limited to maybe £150 in the UK (that's 5 transactions at the maximum of £30) without further authentication, and it's virtually certain that the card provider will refund these transactions too if your card is used without authorisation.
  - CydeWeys 11y ago
    It's significantly easier to simply touch the card than to have to insert it into a device that provides a keypad, and then type a PIN into said keypad. The keypad approach is safer though, and I'd prefer that for lots of situations, but there's no situation in which I'd want to be able to have money leave my card without me at least touching the damn thing to activate it.
herbst 11y ago
Contact less payments without verification is certanly not "nice stuff" but simply negligently and stupid.
- lloydsparkes 11y ago
  Its nice because it makes payments significantly faster especially for small transactions. When your in a busy shop getting lunch, or a bar, it saves a significant amount of time and effort.
  - Majestic121 11y ago
    It does save you some time, but is this time worth the security downgrade? I guess it is up to each person to answer this question. The main issue I have with this is that no one gave me a choice : I received my card with this feature turned on and absolutely no way to have a card without it (I asked at the bank).
    - herbst 11y ago
      I changed banks about things like this. My bank once thought that i have to have Online Banking with my account, while all i wanted (and still do) is absolutely no remote access except with the debit card. They also told me that their eTan is much safer than the classic Tan system via post so they stopped it. I really think less is more when it goes about the safety of my money.
  - malka 11y ago
    When it comes to my money, i want safe. not convenient.
  - herbst 11y ago
    Honestly i have the few extra seconds. My security and peace are fully worth that. Also we have fingerprint scanners on android now. So contactless plus verification is not a issue at all. Contactless without verification is just lazy. There is really nothing to argue.
  - 11y ago
mseebach 11y ago
Yes, but the reason isn't what you suggest it is. The reason is that people like the OP on Facebook, whoever posted it here, and whoever up-voting it, are happy to feed the fear of strangers by propagating these kinds of stories. This story will probably make it into the tabloids tomorrow thanks to having gone viral. A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.

Yet another reason why we can't have nice stuff. Sigh.

by rbobby 11y ago

Yet another reason why we can't have nice stuff. Sigh.

I have a two-factor auth device that requires that I physically activate it by touching it in a certain way. Why the hell aren't contactless credit/debit cards similar? Why should I need to keep them in a Faraday wallet when they shouldn't be active except in those few second windows when I explicitly want them to be?

superuser2 11y ago
There is no "point" to Contactless if you have to take the card out and touch it. At that point you may as well swipe it. Contactless as an idea is probably ill-conceived though.
- tonylemesmer 11y ago
  Its very, very convenient. More-so than cash. 1. I don't have to carry cash 2. I don't have to go to the bank to get cash 3. I don't have to count the cash when paying 4. No change to worry about. 5. Transaction logs via bank statement The downside that this (OP) problem illustrates does need sorting and I was very sceptical of contactless before I used it, but its quite nice.
  - superuser2 11y ago
    Most credit and debit cards are not contactless and can only be read when inserted into a reader. Why not use one of those?
    - tonylemesmer 11y ago
      These contactless cards can also be used on TFL (Transport for London) Underground entry points, directly debiting your bank account. There is no mechanical degradation associated with using a contactless card whereas in my experience swiping the mag-stripe is problematic. However as many have pointed out, there are potentially a boat load of skimming issues.
    - takluyver 11y ago
      In the UK, most new debit cards at least do have contactless payment. I'm not sure about credit cards, but it's probably the same.
- samwillis 11y ago
  I think the "point" of contactless is to make the transactions quicker. Where it used to (in the UK) take 30 seconds to put your card in the chip and pin machine, enter your pin number and wait for the transaction to be confirmed, now its literally 3 seconds. Over the course of a year that is a massive time saving for the retailer and so a cost saving (less staff). With chip and pin the customer was liable for all transactions when their pin number was used. It was your responsibility to ensure it wasn't exposed. Now with contactless there is no risk to the customer, the bank/retailer takes on the full risk of fraud for contactless payments. You will not be out of pocket for a fraudulent contactless transaction. This is why contactless transaction are limited to £30 (initially was £20), it limits the bank/retailers potential exposure to contactless fraud, its also handily set to just about the average card transaction in the UK.
  - superuser2 11y ago
    Interesting. In the US most businesses use magnetic stripe readers which take ~1 second from swipe to approval.
    - josephmx 11y ago
      We stopped using that for lack of security, plus I think signing the receipt (and carbon copy) is time consuming, right?
      - VLM 11y ago
        I don't do much legacy brick and mortar CC shopping anymore, but it seems completely random at Home Depot and Target if they want my signature or not. Maybe after X transactions in the last Y days they no longer need a sig. With a possible side dish of Z percent or lower of transactions are fraudulent from this store.
    - gambiting 11y ago
      You can use swipe in some places in the UK, but then you have to wait for the receipt to print, the cashier to find a pen, you have to sign it and the cashier has to verify it, click on the terminal that they did, and get a final receipt printed. It's even more hassle than typing in a pin.
matthewmacleod 11y ago
In that sense, wouldn't it be just as easy to insert the card into a POS device and supply the PIN? The point of contactless is to make it less bother to use cards. One of the tradeoffs for that is reducing the security – it's sort of a necessary condition. Losses are limited to maybe £150 in the UK (that's 5 transactions at the maximum of £30) without further authentication, and it's virtually certain that the card provider will refund these transactions too if your card is used without authorisation.
- CydeWeys 11y ago
  It's significantly easier to simply touch the card than to have to insert it into a device that provides a keypad, and then type a PIN into said keypad. The keypad approach is safer though, and I'd prefer that for lots of situations, but there's no situation in which I'd want to be able to have money leave my card without me at least touching the damn thing to activate it.

herbst 11y ago

Contact less payments without verification is certanly not "nice stuff" but simply negligently and stupid.

lloydsparkes 11y ago
Its nice because it makes payments significantly faster especially for small transactions. When your in a busy shop getting lunch, or a bar, it saves a significant amount of time and effort.
- Majestic121 11y ago
  It does save you some time, but is this time worth the security downgrade? I guess it is up to each person to answer this question. The main issue I have with this is that no one gave me a choice : I received my card with this feature turned on and absolutely no way to have a card without it (I asked at the bank).
  - herbst 11y ago
    I changed banks about things like this. My bank once thought that i have to have Online Banking with my account, while all i wanted (and still do) is absolutely no remote access except with the debit card. They also told me that their eTan is much safer than the classic Tan system via post so they stopped it. I really think less is more when it goes about the safety of my money.
- malka 11y ago
  When it comes to my money, i want safe. not convenient.
- herbst 11y ago
  Honestly i have the few extra seconds. My security and peace are fully worth that. Also we have fingerprint scanners on android now. So contactless plus verification is not a issue at all. Contactless without verification is just lazy. There is really nothing to argue.
- 11y ago

mseebach 11y ago

Yes, but the reason isn't what you suggest it is. The reason is that people like the OP on Facebook, whoever posted it here, and whoever up-voting it, are happy to feed the fear of strangers by propagating these kinds of stories. This story will probably make it into the tabloids tomorrow thanks to having gone viral. A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.