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It's pretty silly how people get outraged about the smallest changes in the writing system. In Germany the last real changes were made over 100 years ago (remov

It's pretty silly how people get outraged about the smallest changes in the writing system. In Germany the last real changes were made over 100 years ago (removal of C, Th, etc.). There are so many things where there's no justification to do it the way it's done now. That we write a few words with v instead of f helps nobody. The tons of ways we mark long vocals only confuse. S only being pronounced sh in front of p and t is pretty arbitrary, you use the rule for all consonants and become more similar to the other Germanic languages (e.g. Schweden -> Sweden, schmelzen -> smelzen). You could write ts instead of z, because that's how we actually pronounce it and it would be easier to understand for speakers of other germanic languages (smeltsen). But no that would be seen as the downfall of our culture or something.

gpvos 11y ago
You are almost proposing to adopt Dutch spelling. :)
- legulere 11y ago
  I'm actually more influenced by Swedish spelling, where I saw how nice things could be. Separating ij and ei (which were long i and ai in protogermanic) seems pretty cool to me as it makes it more obvious for other germanic languages what the corresponding word is (drijven seems more similar to drive than to treiben), however I guess it's really hard for people to remember which of the two is the correct one for each word when they're pronounced the same.
  - gpvos 11y ago
    I don't know enough about Swedish spelling, but there seem to be quite some irregularities such as the g sometimes being pronounced as j, and o sometimes as u, but there is probably some rule to those. As you show, Dutch has its share of weirdness too, of course.
wolfgke 11y ago
Being German, I find the idea interesting, though not without flaws. There will have to be lots of exceptions to your proposed rule (s before consonant is spoken "sch"), where the s has to be spoken "as usual": "sk": Skelett (skeleton) or Skunk (skunk) "sl": Slowenien, Slowakei (slovenia, slovakia) "sm": Smaragd (emerald), Smegma
- legulere 11y ago
  Those are foreign loanwords, the same exists with St- and Sp-: Spa, Spin, Sputnik, Steak, Stigma, Stewardess You will always end up with some exceptions if you don't write fully phonetically, which isn't possible because there are differences in pronunciation. p.s.: schk doesn't really exist as sk shifted to sch (which is why the reason we write sch): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift#.2Fs.2F_.3E_.2F.CA.83.2F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift#.2...
talideon 11y ago
One important thing about writing 'z' rather than 'ts' is that is makes it more obvious that it's the affricate 'ts' rather 't' followed by 's', which can seem like a subtle difference on the face of it, but it's important for knowing where the syllable break is.
- pif 11y ago
  I agree with you. Still, I think it's unfortunate that the same character is used for two different sounds. I'm having a hard time with my French colleagues saying "pidsa" instead of "pittsa" :-)
Gmo 11y ago
What about the reform of the ß and the triple s ? I have to say that for me as a foreigner with a not-so-good level of German (but who need to use it regularly), that reform was really confusing. I mean, the triple s, I understand, but the ß, it was hard to know when to put one before, but I find it even harder now ! Also because there are a bunch of words I learned which changed orthography. To be fair, I never learned the exact reasoning of the new reform, but I would have found more logical to just get rid of it altogether.
- wolfgke 11y ago
  > I mean, the triple s, I understand, but the ß, it was hard to know when to put one before, but I find it even harder now What do you mean with triple s? Triple consonants only occur (and only in the new spelling) if you concatenate a word that ends with two of the consonants with one that begins with the same, as Fluss[-]strecke or Schiff[-]fahrt. Very easy in my opinion. Much more interesting is the question when to use ss vs ß. Here the new spelling is in my opinion more logical: If the vowel before the ß was short in the old spelling (such as Kuß (kiss)), it is replaced by ss in the new spelling (Kuss). If, on the other hand, in the old spelling the vowel before ß is long (as in Straße (road)), the ß is also used in the new spelling. So the only remaining question is when to use single s vs. ß in words. Here I openly don't know the exact rules (but people told me there are).
  - Gmo 11y ago
    Yes, that's what I meant with the triple s, and I do agree it's logical (if you read carefully that's what I was saying, but apparently, it was not clear enough). As for the ß, I didn't know the exact new rule. At least, there is some logic to it. Now, for a Frenchman, it's not always easy to know when the vowel is short and when it's long, so that's the difficult part ;) (for instance, I would not have thought the a in Straße is long !)

gpvos 11y ago

You are almost proposing to adopt Dutch spelling. :)

legulere 11y ago
I'm actually more influenced by Swedish spelling, where I saw how nice things could be. Separating ij and ei (which were long i and ai in protogermanic) seems pretty cool to me as it makes it more obvious for other germanic languages what the corresponding word is (drijven seems more similar to drive than to treiben), however I guess it's really hard for people to remember which of the two is the correct one for each word when they're pronounced the same.
- gpvos 11y ago
  I don't know enough about Swedish spelling, but there seem to be quite some irregularities such as the g sometimes being pronounced as j, and o sometimes as u, but there is probably some rule to those. As you show, Dutch has its share of weirdness too, of course.

wolfgke 11y ago

Being German, I find the idea interesting, though not without flaws. There will have to be lots of exceptions to your proposed rule (s before consonant is spoken "sch"), where the s has to be spoken "as usual": "sk": Skelett (skeleton) or Skunk (skunk) "sl": Slowenien, Slowakei (slovenia, slovakia) "sm": Smaragd (emerald), Smegma

legulere 11y ago
Those are foreign loanwords, the same exists with St- and Sp-: Spa, Spin, Sputnik, Steak, Stigma, Stewardess You will always end up with some exceptions if you don't write fully phonetically, which isn't possible because there are differences in pronunciation. p.s.: schk doesn't really exist as sk shifted to sch (which is why the reason we write sch): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift#.2Fs.2F_.3E_.2F.CA.83.2F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift#.2...

talideon 11y ago

One important thing about writing 'z' rather than 'ts' is that is makes it more obvious that it's the affricate 'ts' rather 't' followed by 's', which can seem like a subtle difference on the face of it, but it's important for knowing where the syllable break is.

pif 11y ago
I agree with you. Still, I think it's unfortunate that the same character is used for two different sounds. I'm having a hard time with my French colleagues saying "pidsa" instead of "pittsa" :-)

Gmo 11y ago

What about the reform of the ß and the triple s ? I have to say that for me as a foreigner with a not-so-good level of German (but who need to use it regularly), that reform was really confusing. I mean, the triple s, I understand, but the ß, it was hard to know when to put one before, but I find it even harder now ! Also because there are a bunch of words I learned which changed orthography. To be fair, I never learned the exact reasoning of the new reform, but I would have found more logical to just get rid of it altogether.

wolfgke 11y ago
> I mean, the triple s, I understand, but the ß, it was hard to know when to put one before, but I find it even harder now What do you mean with triple s? Triple consonants only occur (and only in the new spelling) if you concatenate a word that ends with two of the consonants with one that begins with the same, as Fluss[-]strecke or Schiff[-]fahrt. Very easy in my opinion. Much more interesting is the question when to use ss vs ß. Here the new spelling is in my opinion more logical: If the vowel before the ß was short in the old spelling (such as Kuß (kiss)), it is replaced by ss in the new spelling (Kuss). If, on the other hand, in the old spelling the vowel before ß is long (as in Straße (road)), the ß is also used in the new spelling. So the only remaining question is when to use single s vs. ß in words. Here I openly don't know the exact rules (but people told me there are).
- Gmo 11y ago
  Yes, that's what I meant with the triple s, and I do agree it's logical (if you read carefully that's what I was saying, but apparently, it was not clear enough). As for the ß, I didn't know the exact new rule. At least, there is some logic to it. Now, for a Frenchman, it's not always easy to know when the vowel is short and when it's long, so that's the difficult part ;) (for instance, I would not have thought the a in Straße is long !)