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Honestly if you get a Mac you can install rEFInd on it and boot Linux just fine, or run Linux in a VM. The hardware also almost never breaks and especially if y

by jolux 11y ago

Honestly if you get a Mac you can install rEFInd on it and boot Linux just fine, or run Linux in a VM. The hardware also almost never breaks and especially if you have AppleCare they frequently replace it for free. Yes, it may be difficult to upgrade yourself. That's entirely true and if it's a deal breaker there's not much else around. You might do well to look at https://puri.sm https://puri.sm if you're a Linux user, they seem to make pretty good machines with free software down to the BIOS. There's also always http://minifree.org http://minifree.org but they don't really make modern machines.

whalesalad 11y ago
Agreed. All of the points in this article that are against the PC makers are both valid and quite significant. The Apple ones are not practical problems. Sure you aren't encouraged to open it, but you can. I've replaced virtually every part on virtually every generation of Intel Mac just fine. Screens, memory, batteries, disk drives, etc... If you don't like the OS and the free software that's included, replace it. You weren't gonna stick with the OEM bloatware Windows install on the Thinkpad anyway. The author is correct, we need more competition, but for the time being a Mac is truly the best piece of kit you can get. It'll run any OS and doesn't ship with an ssl mitm.
- dcposch 11y ago
  > If you don't like the OS and the free software that's included, replace it. You weren't gonna stick with the OEM bloatware Windows install on the Thinkpad anyway. Fair point. I've heard mixed reviews from people dual booting Linux on a retina MBP because Ubuntu has bad high DPI support. > The author is correct, we need more competition, but for the time being a Mac is truly the best piece of kit you can get. It'll run any OS and doesn't ship with an ssl mitm. Yeah, I think there's an untapped market for a well built standard laptop (not a tablet crossover, not a Chromebook) that's not a Mac!
ArchD 11y ago
Don't you get annoying hardware incompatibility when running Linux on Apple hardware? The Arch Linux wiki on Macbook Pro, for example, doesn't suggest running Linux on it is simple.
rasz_pl 11y ago
never brake? :))) Apple hardware is build to fail, 35 years and they still make computers like we are living on Arrakis and moisture doesnt exist.
- jolux 11y ago
  Well I'll put it this way: I've owned three Windows laptops and one Mac and the Mac has outlasted all three individually, two of them combined, and on track to outlast all three of them combined in the next year. It also has yet to slow down. But that's just my anecdotal experience. Think of it what you will.
  - jordanpg 11y ago
    Same experience here. 1 MBP has outlasted (and is still working like new in most important respects, including battery life) the combined lifetimes of all 3 plastic garbage Windows laptops I've owned before getting this one. That's 5 years and change, still counting. I'm no Apple fanboy, but the difference in hardware quality is incomparable in my limited experience.
  - manyxcxi 11y ago
    I've had two MBPs since 2007/8 and the first one still works just fine- in fact it works great with upgraded RAM and an SSD. The second is a late 2014... I was on a 2 year cycle with my PC laptops. Batteries, screens, the fact that they were shit to begin with...
  - Mikhail_Edoshin 11y ago
    I have exactly opposite experience. What I've bought from Apple ended up breaking or revealing hardware issues after the warranty was over and outside of the series that was entitled for free replacements. I bought Apple Mouse and found that I have to clean it every week and that to do this I have to break it, because it's not meant to be taken apart for cleaning. And to take it apart I had to deal with two tiny connectors and three very small screws and other paths that are rather hard to handle. Compare with my Logitech mouse: I can easily take it apart with a plain screwdriver and over ten years of everyday use I only had to do it twice. I tried to install new memory into my old Mac Mini myself (there's no Apple service where I live) and while I'm reasonably savvy with this, I ended up breaking one of the plastic holders and probably broke the sound somehow, because now it is silent. All this was in vain though, because it turned out Macs require some very specific memory chips, usually twice as expensive as normal ones. The only working piece of Mac hardware I still own is an old Mac Mini that is practically unusable since I've had to upgrade the OS to v10.9 or 10, I forgot which. Everything became so slow I could not believe it. Fortunately, all I need from Mac is to compile code for Mac OS X and I can do this via SSH from my Windows laptop. It certainly works faster this way. I don't think I'll ever buy anything from Apple unless I absolutely need it for business and that is going to be the cheapest option.
chadzawistowski 11y ago
> You might do well to look at https://puri.sm https://puri.sm if you're a Linux user, they seem to make pretty good machines with free software down to the BIOS. Purism must have great marketing, because I keep seeing this fiction repeated. Their BIOS is not open. The only big difference between a Purism laptop and other laptops (Acer, Asus, Dell, etc.) is that the CPU has been fused to allow running unsigned firmware. Unfortunately, since we still don't have free firmware to run in place of Intel's, Purism has no present advantage over buying most any laptop and installing Linux yourself. Purism loudly trumpets their roadmaps[0] and plans[1] so as to suggest a trajectory towards totally free software, but until they achieve it their product is not worth a premium compared to installing Linux on an ultrabook of your choice. [0] https://puri.sm/posts/roadmap-to-a-completely-free-bios/ https://puri.sm/posts/roadmap-to-a-completely-free-bios/ Here they outline many things that need to be done. But note the language- "Purism’s goal is to publish a Free Software implementation ... as soon as an implementation is available." But who is responsible for implementing it? [1] https://puri.sm/road-to-fsf-ryf-endorsement-and-beyond/ https://puri.sm/road-to-fsf-ryf-endorsement-and-beyond/ Note that the FSF hasn't actually endorsed them yet, although this page is supposed to convince you that they're awful close. Why not wait until they're actually endorsed? I did buy a Libreboot X200 from minifree, and I am quite happy with it. Alternatively, you can replace a Thinkpad X200's firmware yourself by following these steps (hardware required) http://libreboot.org/docs/install/x200_external.html http://libreboot.org/docs/install/x200_external.html
- kriro 11y ago
  There's some value over other laptops, notably that it's tested with Linux as the main target and uses recent hardware that is virtualization friendly (+15" which is a personal requirement for me). Configuring a laptop like that takes a nontrivial amount of time from my experience. What interests me is that it will run Qubes OS before the 15" ships if that statement is to be trusted. It is one of the more interesting approaches out there and I'll gladly pay a premium for a Qubes laptop. The BIOS is not free and the laptop won't be free anytime soon due to Intel ME [1]. Unfortunately the compromise for the foreseeable future seems to be freedom vs. more power or hoping for something awesome non-x86. [1](PDF): http://blog.invisiblethings.org/papers/2015/x86_harmful.pdf http://blog.invisiblethings.org/papers/2015/x86_harmful.pdf
ocean3 11y ago
" if you have AppleCare they frequently replace it for free" - as long as you have warranty right? I had a issue with motherboard, the official Apple service center near my place quoted a replacement price equal to a new windows laptop with just 6 months additional warranty.

by jolux 11y ago

whalesalad 11y ago

Agreed. All of the points in this article that are against the PC makers are both valid and quite significant. The Apple ones are not practical problems. Sure you aren't encouraged to open it, but you can. I've replaced virtually every part on virtually every generation of Intel Mac just fine. Screens, memory, batteries, disk drives, etc... If you don't like the OS and the free software that's included, replace it. You weren't gonna stick with the OEM bloatware Windows install on the Thinkpad anyway. The author is correct, we need more competition, but for the time being a Mac is truly the best piece of kit you can get. It'll run any OS and doesn't ship with an ssl mitm.

dcposch 11y ago
> If you don't like the OS and the free software that's included, replace it. You weren't gonna stick with the OEM bloatware Windows install on the Thinkpad anyway. Fair point. I've heard mixed reviews from people dual booting Linux on a retina MBP because Ubuntu has bad high DPI support. > The author is correct, we need more competition, but for the time being a Mac is truly the best piece of kit you can get. It'll run any OS and doesn't ship with an ssl mitm. Yeah, I think there's an untapped market for a well built standard laptop (not a tablet crossover, not a Chromebook) that's not a Mac!

ArchD 11y ago

Don't you get annoying hardware incompatibility when running Linux on Apple hardware? The Arch Linux wiki on Macbook Pro, for example, doesn't suggest running Linux on it is simple.

rasz_pl 11y ago

never brake? :))) Apple hardware is build to fail, 35 years and they still make computers like we are living on Arrakis and moisture doesnt exist.

jolux 11y ago
Well I'll put it this way: I've owned three Windows laptops and one Mac and the Mac has outlasted all three individually, two of them combined, and on track to outlast all three of them combined in the next year. It also has yet to slow down. But that's just my anecdotal experience. Think of it what you will.
- jordanpg 11y ago
  Same experience here. 1 MBP has outlasted (and is still working like new in most important respects, including battery life) the combined lifetimes of all 3 plastic garbage Windows laptops I've owned before getting this one. That's 5 years and change, still counting. I'm no Apple fanboy, but the difference in hardware quality is incomparable in my limited experience.
- manyxcxi 11y ago
  I've had two MBPs since 2007/8 and the first one still works just fine- in fact it works great with upgraded RAM and an SSD. The second is a late 2014... I was on a 2 year cycle with my PC laptops. Batteries, screens, the fact that they were shit to begin with...
- Mikhail_Edoshin 11y ago
  I have exactly opposite experience. What I've bought from Apple ended up breaking or revealing hardware issues after the warranty was over and outside of the series that was entitled for free replacements. I bought Apple Mouse and found that I have to clean it every week and that to do this I have to break it, because it's not meant to be taken apart for cleaning. And to take it apart I had to deal with two tiny connectors and three very small screws and other paths that are rather hard to handle. Compare with my Logitech mouse: I can easily take it apart with a plain screwdriver and over ten years of everyday use I only had to do it twice. I tried to install new memory into my old Mac Mini myself (there's no Apple service where I live) and while I'm reasonably savvy with this, I ended up breaking one of the plastic holders and probably broke the sound somehow, because now it is silent. All this was in vain though, because it turned out Macs require some very specific memory chips, usually twice as expensive as normal ones. The only working piece of Mac hardware I still own is an old Mac Mini that is practically unusable since I've had to upgrade the OS to v10.9 or 10, I forgot which. Everything became so slow I could not believe it. Fortunately, all I need from Mac is to compile code for Mac OS X and I can do this via SSH from my Windows laptop. It certainly works faster this way. I don't think I'll ever buy anything from Apple unless I absolutely need it for business and that is going to be the cheapest option.

chadzawistowski 11y ago

> You might do well to look at https://puri.sm https://puri.sm if you're a Linux user, they seem to make pretty good machines with free software down to the BIOS. Purism must have great marketing, because I keep seeing this fiction repeated. Their BIOS is not open. The only big difference between a Purism laptop and other laptops (Acer, Asus, Dell, etc.) is that the CPU has been fused to allow running unsigned firmware. Unfortunately, since we still don't have free firmware to run in place of Intel's, Purism has no present advantage over buying most any laptop and installing Linux yourself. Purism loudly trumpets their roadmaps[0] and plans[1] so as to suggest a trajectory towards totally free software, but until they achieve it their product is not worth a premium compared to installing Linux on an ultrabook of your choice. [0] https://puri.sm/posts/roadmap-to-a-completely-free-bios/ https://puri.sm/posts/roadmap-to-a-completely-free-bios/ Here they outline many things that need to be done. But note the language- "Purism’s goal is to publish a Free Software implementation ... as soon as an implementation is available." But who is responsible for implementing it? [1] https://puri.sm/road-to-fsf-ryf-endorsement-and-beyond/ https://puri.sm/road-to-fsf-ryf-endorsement-and-beyond/ Note that the FSF hasn't actually endorsed them yet, although this page is supposed to convince you that they're awful close. Why not wait until they're actually endorsed? I did buy a Libreboot X200 from minifree, and I am quite happy with it. Alternatively, you can replace a Thinkpad X200's firmware yourself by following these steps (hardware required) http://libreboot.org/docs/install/x200_external.html http://libreboot.org/docs/install/x200_external.html

kriro 11y ago
There's some value over other laptops, notably that it's tested with Linux as the main target and uses recent hardware that is virtualization friendly (+15" which is a personal requirement for me). Configuring a laptop like that takes a nontrivial amount of time from my experience. What interests me is that it will run Qubes OS before the 15" ships if that statement is to be trusted. It is one of the more interesting approaches out there and I'll gladly pay a premium for a Qubes laptop. The BIOS is not free and the laptop won't be free anytime soon due to Intel ME [1]. Unfortunately the compromise for the foreseeable future seems to be freedom vs. more power or hoping for something awesome non-x86. [1](PDF): http://blog.invisiblethings.org/papers/2015/x86_harmful.pdf http://blog.invisiblethings.org/papers/2015/x86_harmful.pdf

ocean3 11y ago

" if you have AppleCare they frequently replace it for free" - as long as you have warranty right? I had a issue with motherboard, the official Apple service center near my place quoted a replacement price equal to a new windows laptop with just 6 months additional warranty.