4 ms·

America has interests and not friends. Israelis understand this. Similarly Israel has interests and not friends. They are interested in protecting their own int

by x5n1 11y ago

America has interests and not friends. Israelis understand this. Similarly Israel has interests and not friends. They are interested in protecting their own interests. Even if it costs Americans for them to do so. So you can basically say Israelis learned how to play these games from Americans.

andybak 11y ago
> So you can basically say Israelis learned how to play these games from Americans. I think you can probably trace such realpolitik and statecraft back to Mesopotamia and beyond.
- redthrowaway 11y ago
  You can certainly trace it to Prussia/Germany and Bismarck. The "no permanent friends, only permanent interests" line people usually attribute to Kissinger originally came from Lord Palmerston in the 1800s.
guelo 11y ago
But Israelis have bought our corruptible political system to the point where all our politicians fight each other to prove who is more of a "friend" to Israel. If the US where acting in its real best interest it would keep Israel at much more of an arm's length. In a way Israel is much more of a dangerous enemy to American democracy than Iran, Russia, China or any other country.
- 13thLetter 11y ago
  > But Israelis have bought our corruptible political system... This isn't Stormfront, or a British newspaper. Please take your Zionist conspiracy theories elsewhere.
  - guelo 11y ago
    Give me a break. It is not antisemetic to say that AIPAC is one of the most powerful lobbys in DC. Or that people like Sheldon Adelson are central to the election process. I'm not saying it's the only special interest undermining our democracy, I'm saying it's a big one and heavily influenced by a foreign country. If it were a heavily influential China lobby everyone would be freaking out.
    - 13thLetter 11y ago
      But you didn't say that AIPAC is powerful (it is) or people like Sheldon Adelson are influential (they are.) You said: "But Israelis have bought our corruptible political system to the point where all our politicians fight each other to prove who is more of a "friend" to Israel. If the US where acting in its real best interest it would keep Israel at much more of an arm's length. In a way Israel is much more of a dangerous enemy to American democracy than Iran, Russia, China or any other country." That's a lot more serious than dispassionately noting how one nation among many that has an influential lobby in the United States. But one other point that is worth considering: American public opinion of Israel is generally around 60% positive, 30% neutral, and 10% negative (source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/poally.html http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/poally...). Is it particularly shocking that politicians go where the votes are? No conspiracy theory required.
      - x5n1 11y ago
        http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-congress-1451425210 http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-con... "Stepped-up NSA eavesdropping revealed to the White House how Mr. Netanyahu and his advisers had leaked details of the U.S.-Iran negotiations—learned through Israeli spying operations—to undermine the talks; coordinated talking points with Jewish-American groups against the deal; and asked undecided lawmakers what it would take to win their votes, according to current and former officials familiar with the intercepts."
        13thLetter 11y ago
        So... you are incredibly offended about how Israel spied on the United States, and it's fortunate that American spying on Israel revealed this terrible behavior? Or... what? Not sure what you're getting at, here; perhaps you should add a little context to your blind link quoting.
- sithadmin 11y ago
  >If the US where acting in its real best interest it would keep Israel at much more of an arm's length. In a way Israel is much more of a dangerous enemy to American democracy than Iran, Russia, China or any other country. This hardly matters to the most ardent Israel supporters in the USA: the sort that believe that propping up Israel is the key to realizing the Christian apocalypse mythos.
  - gadders 11y ago
    Or maybe people think that Israel is the only liberal democracy in the middle east and surrounded by nations and terrorist organisations that want to wipe it out.
    - obrero 11y ago
      > only liberal democracy in the middle east What a laugh. A Palestinian in Hebron whose family has been there for thousands of years gets no vote, whereas a Jew from Brooklyn who just got off a plane and steals his land does get a vote in the Knesset. This is a democracy? How deluded do you think we all are?
      - 13thLetter 11y ago
        The Palestinian in Hebron doesn't have a vote because the PLO -- after fighting, and losing, several explicit wars of genocide against Israel -- explicitly refuses to negotiate a settlement or accept a peace offer. If you're upset about that poor family in Hebron, you need to write to Ramallah, not Jerusalem. > whereas a Jew from Brooklyn who just got off a plane and steals his land Let's hear more details about your narrative where a perfidous Jew can just climb on an airplane today, fly to Israel, point at an arbitrary plot of land in the West Bank and take it away from its current owner.
BWStearns 11y ago
>> America has interests and not friends If only we acted that way. Our levels of support to Israel are disproportionate to the benefits we receive. For better or for worse we would in no way tolerate the Israeli level of diplomatic and political sabotage without such a strong pro-Israeli lobby. If it's a moral imperative, then fine, but I've never heard a convincing description of what we're actually getting from the Israelis to justify the rest of the relationship. Just "having a democracy in the Middle East" is not itself useful, especially when literally everyone in the neighborhood wants to kill them. If it weren't for the pro-Israeli lobby they'd be getting the Ukraine treatment, strong words of support, but otherwise they'd be on their own.

by x5n1 11y ago

andybak 11y ago

> So you can basically say Israelis learned how to play these games from Americans. I think you can probably trace such realpolitik and statecraft back to Mesopotamia and beyond.

redthrowaway 11y ago
You can certainly trace it to Prussia/Germany and Bismarck. The "no permanent friends, only permanent interests" line people usually attribute to Kissinger originally came from Lord Palmerston in the 1800s.

guelo 11y ago

But Israelis have bought our corruptible political system to the point where all our politicians fight each other to prove who is more of a "friend" to Israel. If the US where acting in its real best interest it would keep Israel at much more of an arm's length. In a way Israel is much more of a dangerous enemy to American democracy than Iran, Russia, China or any other country.

13thLetter 11y ago
> But Israelis have bought our corruptible political system... This isn't Stormfront, or a British newspaper. Please take your Zionist conspiracy theories elsewhere.
- guelo 11y ago
  Give me a break. It is not antisemetic to say that AIPAC is one of the most powerful lobbys in DC. Or that people like Sheldon Adelson are central to the election process. I'm not saying it's the only special interest undermining our democracy, I'm saying it's a big one and heavily influenced by a foreign country. If it were a heavily influential China lobby everyone would be freaking out.
  - 13thLetter 11y ago
    But you didn't say that AIPAC is powerful (it is) or people like Sheldon Adelson are influential (they are.) You said: "But Israelis have bought our corruptible political system to the point where all our politicians fight each other to prove who is more of a "friend" to Israel. If the US where acting in its real best interest it would keep Israel at much more of an arm's length. In a way Israel is much more of a dangerous enemy to American democracy than Iran, Russia, China or any other country." That's a lot more serious than dispassionately noting how one nation among many that has an influential lobby in the United States. But one other point that is worth considering: American public opinion of Israel is generally around 60% positive, 30% neutral, and 10% negative (source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/poally.html http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/poally...). Is it particularly shocking that politicians go where the votes are? No conspiracy theory required.
    - x5n1 11y ago
      http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-congress-1451425210 http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-con... "Stepped-up NSA eavesdropping revealed to the White House how Mr. Netanyahu and his advisers had leaked details of the U.S.-Iran negotiations—learned through Israeli spying operations—to undermine the talks; coordinated talking points with Jewish-American groups against the deal; and asked undecided lawmakers what it would take to win their votes, according to current and former officials familiar with the intercepts."
      - 13thLetter 11y ago
        So... you are incredibly offended about how Israel spied on the United States, and it's fortunate that American spying on Israel revealed this terrible behavior? Or... what? Not sure what you're getting at, here; perhaps you should add a little context to your blind link quoting.
sithadmin 11y ago
>If the US where acting in its real best interest it would keep Israel at much more of an arm's length. In a way Israel is much more of a dangerous enemy to American democracy than Iran, Russia, China or any other country. This hardly matters to the most ardent Israel supporters in the USA: the sort that believe that propping up Israel is the key to realizing the Christian apocalypse mythos.
- gadders 11y ago
  Or maybe people think that Israel is the only liberal democracy in the middle east and surrounded by nations and terrorist organisations that want to wipe it out.
  - obrero 11y ago
    > only liberal democracy in the middle east What a laugh. A Palestinian in Hebron whose family has been there for thousands of years gets no vote, whereas a Jew from Brooklyn who just got off a plane and steals his land does get a vote in the Knesset. This is a democracy? How deluded do you think we all are?
    - 13thLetter 11y ago
      The Palestinian in Hebron doesn't have a vote because the PLO -- after fighting, and losing, several explicit wars of genocide against Israel -- explicitly refuses to negotiate a settlement or accept a peace offer. If you're upset about that poor family in Hebron, you need to write to Ramallah, not Jerusalem. > whereas a Jew from Brooklyn who just got off a plane and steals his land Let's hear more details about your narrative where a perfidous Jew can just climb on an airplane today, fly to Israel, point at an arbitrary plot of land in the West Bank and take it away from its current owner.

BWStearns 11y ago

>> America has interests and not friends If only we acted that way. Our levels of support to Israel are disproportionate to the benefits we receive. For better or for worse we would in no way tolerate the Israeli level of diplomatic and political sabotage without such a strong pro-Israeli lobby. If it's a moral imperative, then fine, but I've never heard a convincing description of what we're actually getting from the Israelis to justify the rest of the relationship. Just "having a democracy in the Middle East" is not itself useful, especially when literally everyone in the neighborhood wants to kill them. If it weren't for the pro-Israeli lobby they'd be getting the Ukraine treatment, strong words of support, but otherwise they'd be on their own.