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The MH370 tracking problem is unfortunate but what I'm most fascinated by in all of this is the continuing reminder of how powerless we are as a civilization wh

The MH370 tracking problem is unfortunate but what I'm most fascinated by in all of this is the continuing reminder of how powerless we are as a civilization when it comes to the oceans. A plane crashes in an area with no landmass and we lose it. We've overfished many species to near-extinction because we completely failed to understand exactly how many fish there actually are. The sea acts as a natural eraser for human habitation, sometimes wiping out all evidence of entire communities within hours. We lose all kinds of cargo into the ocean and haven't the faintest clue where it goes. We're only beginning to figure out how to convert seawater into potable form effectively. The majority of our planet is covered in something we can't even figure out how to build habitats on top of without piling up dirt underneath. The belief that we have any mastery over this planet seems to humbly disintegrate when looking at our relationship to our oceans

fapjacks 11y ago
I grew up in Kansas but lived on Oahu for six years. I will never forget the first time my squad leader took me body surfing at Sandy's. That is the interface of the most powerful force on our planet.
maxerickson 11y ago
The logistics of a cruise ship probably don't compare all that badly to a town of similar size.
- kijin 11y ago
  Except you probably won't die if you accidentally step outside of the town.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    I was mostly drawing a comparison with the one sentence The majority of our planet is covered in something we can't even figure out how to build habitats on top of without piling up dirt underneath. A town of 5,000 people that is situated on land will usually also import loads of fuel and food. So a cruise ship isn't really the same thing as a town, but it has quite a bit in common with it if you look at the town as a habitat.
Disruptive_Dave 11y ago
> The belief that we have any mastery over this planet seems to humbly disintegrate when looking at our relationship to our oceans And let's be thankful for that. We need it.
wcummings 11y ago
That, or it was stolen by an intelligence agency.
- mahmud 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
pm24601 11y ago
You don't need to understand something to destroy it. You don't need to master something to wreak it. Sadly, our ignorance is doing both.
7952 11y ago
> the continuing reminder of how powerless we are as a civilization when it comes to the oceans. That is symptomatic of our child like relationship with the environment. We are deeply dependant but have little understanding or agency. It is obvious that high fish stocks will allow more catches than near extinction levels. Catching 1% of 1 billion is better than 40% of 1 million. Yet we continue to treat fish as a short term commodity to be exploited. We may lack mastery of the planet, but that is no excuse for burying our head in the sand. We have a huge impact and we cannot just opt-out of that.
- WalterBright 11y ago
  That's a classic tragedy of the commons. For comparison, nobody is predicting running out of chickens, hogs, or cattle.
- monk_e_boy 11y ago
  No one can police the sea. We have big issues with illegal fishing. What can we do about it?
  - thomasz 11y ago
    Ban all factory ships from unloading freight for one or two generations.
  - cmdkeen 11y ago
    We can and we do to some extent. The problem is that on the high seas it is the country of registration that you need permission from to board. It wouldn't cost much to offer the poor countries that register the worst offenders to either stop registrations or be more permissive with boarding rights. It doesn't even have to be governments, Sea Shepherd do some good work and show what can be achieved. The other problem is poor countries not able to secure their own territorial waters and Exclusive Economic Zones. For instance in West Africa many navies and coastguards have ships with endurance measured in days. If you're up to no good you just wait for them to come alongside. RUSI are currently floating the idea of giving them proper offshore patrol vessels paid for from the aid budget to enable them to actually patrol and secure their waters.
Aelinsaar 11y ago
On the other hand, when you actually spend a night awake, with that electric terror running through you at these thoughts you can at least understand why most people do NOT accept what you're saying. I wish that I were one of those people sometimes.
monk_e_boy 11y ago
I live by the Atlantic, people go missing every so often. It seems tragic but normal to the locals. The sea is the sea. It'll slurp you out and kill you. Tourists seems quite shocked that there isn't more that could be done. Everything in a city is very safe, it's pretty hard to accidentally kill yourself. It stands to reason that we should put up some more signs, or have someone stop them from doing something silly. We had storms last week. A car was found in a car park next to a beach. The guy was working somewhere near the beach. He was never seen again. No one knows what happened. The search and rescue do a days search, but where do you look?
- tomphoolery 11y ago
  Sounds like the perfect retirement community for a serial killer.
  - platz 11y ago
    Now we're talkin'!
- mmmBacon 11y ago
  Same thing happens here along the Northern California coast. With El Nino this year, the waves are bigger and more powerful than a typical winter and catch people unaware. There are occasional "sneaker" waves that break on the beach and knock people down. Recently: http://www.mercurynews.com/central-coast/ci_29405514/san-jose-pair-missing-after-being-swept-into http://www.mercurynews.com/central-coast/ci_29405514/san-jos... http://abc7news.com/news/pacifica-man-drowns-trying-to-save-wife-swept-out-by-big-waves/1193987/ http://abc7news.com/news/pacifica-man-drowns-trying-to-save-...
  - personlurking 11y ago
    There was a story from last week, in France. The guy filming is apparently handicapped, but there was a fifth person who entered the scene afterwards and saved all of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSgSMZsMh4A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSgSMZsMh4A Or this one from 2013, in Lisbon (college hazing gone wrong) http://news.sky.com/story/1183112/portugal-five-students-missing-in-sea http://news.sky.com/story/1183112/portugal-five-students-mis...

fapjacks 11y ago

I grew up in Kansas but lived on Oahu for six years. I will never forget the first time my squad leader took me body surfing at Sandy's. That is the interface of the most powerful force on our planet.

maxerickson 11y ago

The logistics of a cruise ship probably don't compare all that badly to a town of similar size.

kijin 11y ago
Except you probably won't die if you accidentally step outside of the town.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  I was mostly drawing a comparison with the one sentence The majority of our planet is covered in something we can't even figure out how to build habitats on top of without piling up dirt underneath. A town of 5,000 people that is situated on land will usually also import loads of fuel and food. So a cruise ship isn't really the same thing as a town, but it has quite a bit in common with it if you look at the town as a habitat.

Disruptive_Dave 11y ago

> The belief that we have any mastery over this planet seems to humbly disintegrate when looking at our relationship to our oceans And let's be thankful for that. We need it.

wcummings 11y ago

That, or it was stolen by an intelligence agency.

mahmud 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

pm24601 11y ago

You don't need to understand something to destroy it. You don't need to master something to wreak it. Sadly, our ignorance is doing both.

7952 11y ago

> the continuing reminder of how powerless we are as a civilization when it comes to the oceans. That is symptomatic of our child like relationship with the environment. We are deeply dependant but have little understanding or agency. It is obvious that high fish stocks will allow more catches than near extinction levels. Catching 1% of 1 billion is better than 40% of 1 million. Yet we continue to treat fish as a short term commodity to be exploited. We may lack mastery of the planet, but that is no excuse for burying our head in the sand. We have a huge impact and we cannot just opt-out of that.

WalterBright 11y ago
That's a classic tragedy of the commons. For comparison, nobody is predicting running out of chickens, hogs, or cattle.
monk_e_boy 11y ago
No one can police the sea. We have big issues with illegal fishing. What can we do about it?
- thomasz 11y ago
  Ban all factory ships from unloading freight for one or two generations.
- cmdkeen 11y ago
  We can and we do to some extent. The problem is that on the high seas it is the country of registration that you need permission from to board. It wouldn't cost much to offer the poor countries that register the worst offenders to either stop registrations or be more permissive with boarding rights. It doesn't even have to be governments, Sea Shepherd do some good work and show what can be achieved. The other problem is poor countries not able to secure their own territorial waters and Exclusive Economic Zones. For instance in West Africa many navies and coastguards have ships with endurance measured in days. If you're up to no good you just wait for them to come alongside. RUSI are currently floating the idea of giving them proper offshore patrol vessels paid for from the aid budget to enable them to actually patrol and secure their waters.

Aelinsaar 11y ago

On the other hand, when you actually spend a night awake, with that electric terror running through you at these thoughts you can at least understand why most people do NOT accept what you're saying. I wish that I were one of those people sometimes.

monk_e_boy 11y ago

I live by the Atlantic, people go missing every so often. It seems tragic but normal to the locals. The sea is the sea. It'll slurp you out and kill you. Tourists seems quite shocked that there isn't more that could be done. Everything in a city is very safe, it's pretty hard to accidentally kill yourself. It stands to reason that we should put up some more signs, or have someone stop them from doing something silly. We had storms last week. A car was found in a car park next to a beach. The guy was working somewhere near the beach. He was never seen again. No one knows what happened. The search and rescue do a days search, but where do you look?

tomphoolery 11y ago
Sounds like the perfect retirement community for a serial killer.
- platz 11y ago
  Now we're talkin'!
mmmBacon 11y ago
Same thing happens here along the Northern California coast. With El Nino this year, the waves are bigger and more powerful than a typical winter and catch people unaware. There are occasional "sneaker" waves that break on the beach and knock people down. Recently: http://www.mercurynews.com/central-coast/ci_29405514/san-jose-pair-missing-after-being-swept-into http://www.mercurynews.com/central-coast/ci_29405514/san-jos... http://abc7news.com/news/pacifica-man-drowns-trying-to-save-wife-swept-out-by-big-waves/1193987/ http://abc7news.com/news/pacifica-man-drowns-trying-to-save-...
- personlurking 11y ago
  There was a story from last week, in France. The guy filming is apparently handicapped, but there was a fifth person who entered the scene afterwards and saved all of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSgSMZsMh4A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSgSMZsMh4A Or this one from 2013, in Lisbon (college hazing gone wrong) http://news.sky.com/story/1183112/portugal-five-students-missing-in-sea http://news.sky.com/story/1183112/portugal-five-students-mis...