4 ms·

Also I would like to mention that the lack of interest in packet radio is quite sad. I hope the trend will reverse at some point. How long has it been since yo

by pingec 11y ago

Also I would like to mention that the lack of interest in packet radio is quite sad. I hope the trend will reverse at some point. How long has it been since you could solder your own transceiver for a practical purpose? I'm talking DIY "wifi" with a range of tens of kilometers (of course ham radio restrictions apply). AX.25 is ancient and slow, I want to watch youtube over packet radio internet with my ham radio license. Because... why not? The only guy working in this field I am aware of is this one http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/ http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/

Gracana 11y ago
Modern (absolutely enormous) websites and ssl make packet radio internet gateways a difficult proposition.
- Ao7bei3s 11y ago
  @Encryption: Not really. If you have an expensive gateway anyway, you can just terminate the SSL there.
  - 6d6b73 11y ago
    You can't. FCC does not allow radio traffic to be encrypted on Ham bands.
    - Ao7bei3s 11y ago
      Internet <---(ssl,ethernet)---> Gateway <----(plaintext,radio)-----> Ham Insecure, but that's exactly the point. (Also: ham radio in general, not just the FCC. Over here, it's the BNetzA.)
pps43 11y ago
Internet is much less useful without encryption, when you can't even log in to any web application.
- freehunter 11y ago
  There's plenty on the Internet that doesn't require a log in. Wikipedia stands out pretty well. If the Internet shut down tomorrow, Wikipedia over Packet Radio would be pretty useful.
- luxpir 11y ago
  I may be wrong on this one, but I'm sure I've read in several articles over the years that encryption is permissible if you host the keys publicly/online somewhere. Now I know what the immediate response to that is, because it's mine too, but your problem with drive-by, opportunistic eavesdropping is semi-solved if the location of your keys is only known to your logbook and any inspectors who come knocking. Besides, there may be wiggle-room for allowing encryption on new bands in the future, given that all mobile and most home internet use is over radio now anyway. Exciting times. I'm just about to take my test for the Intermediate license in the UK and this is the direction I want to research. 5G area-wide networks, micropayments, etc. As a side-note, I hope I live to see a true zero infrastructure meshnet internet, where every house or device has an omnidirectional HF/VHF/UHF antenna to connect to the completely decentralised web, at speed, for all comms. That'd be neat. -- EDIT: Some resources I've dug up: - http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Data%20Encryption%20is%20Legal.pdf http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Data%20Encryptio... - https://rietta.com/blog/2009/08/17/authentication-without-encryption-for/ https://rietta.com/blog/2009/08/17/authentication-without-en... - http://rsaxvc.net/blog/2014/2/1/Encryption%20and%20Amateur%20Radio.html http://rsaxvc.net/blog/2014/2/1/Encryption%20and%20Amateur%2... Clearly much room for discussion and interpretation still. And these rules vary per country, so you can imagine picking up broadcasts from more lax countries that were encrypted...
- adrusi 11y ago
  Its a major limitation, but you can still authenticate yourself using a cryptographic signature. This is enough to make services that deal with public data like wikipedia and twitter.
metafex 11y ago
Check out HAMNET, it's not self-soldering everything, but to do proper packet-radio you need a DSP or a powerfull CPU to process the signals anyway. There is also always SDR which makes it easier to experiment with new protocols. As to YT over ham radio: there's ATV (amateur television) and you can/could? (check your regional regulations for audio broadcasts) send radio streams on some bands. As long as it stays true to the ham-spirit, you should be ok. (I can't speak for what the ARRL allows on what bands and so on, i have an old yearbook stashed away somewhere, but i'm not american, so...) vy 73
Ao7bei3s 11y ago
I find the general lack of interest in exploring new things in ham radio sad. I'm really happy that SDRs are cheap now and that's making things somewhat better. It seems that most (or at least very many) hams just do contesting, where there is no innovation or even just learning something new at all and doing well is just a matter of good antenna placement, high power (except for QRP), training and perseverance in repeating the same letters for hours on end. For decades! Antenna and transmitter characteristics (the equipment is off-the-shelve anyway) and propagation conditions (in contests, all signals are 59 anyway) are really well-researched by now, so why are we wasting time and bands on contests? Unfortunately most hams don't take the suggestion to stop contesting too well.
- intrasight 11y ago
  Your statements demonstrate a misunderstanding of the fundamental purpose of ham radio and contesting. Ham radio is civilization's backup when the shit hits the fan. Contesting is how they maintain the backup network.
  - Ao7bei3s 11y ago
    Communication in case of disasters is not the fundamental purpose of ham radio, it's one purpose. The others are research, education and exchange between peoples and just as important. Contests don't serve any of these well. Stations are being used outside of contests too, and DX QSOs are being done outside of contests too (besides, DX capability isn't that important in case of disaster. also the DX bands 'need' unwieldy antennas and the skywave unreliability and the ground/skywave gap doesn't help. the local 2m/70cm repeater would be much more useful -- portable 2m/70cm HTs are cheap+common.). There are hams that do care about disaster communication and prepare for it. These are good to have. It involves more than contesting though (e.g. actually transmitting information instead of skipping even trivial things like proper signal reports just to be faster, advance coordination with civil services, independence of power grid...).
    - intrasight 11y ago
      I agree that there are other purposes, but from society's standpoint "backup" is the fundamental purpose. If the existing contest rules are not well geared towards that objective, then they should tweak the rules.
paulmd 11y ago
If you have a license, you should know why not - there's just not enough bandwidth for that to be a widespread practice. There's a reason cell companies are paying big bucks for spectrum. 802.11b has a bandwidth of 22 MHz. The entire 2m VHF allocation for amateur radio is 4 MHz. The entire 70cm UHF allocation is 30 MHz, and there's another 26 MHz at 33cm. Now, with a license you can use much higher output power (up to 1.5 KW depending on the band), including on 2.4 GHz. A high-gain antenna and some power can go quite far. And there's also fast-scan Amateur Television (ATV) and slow-scan television modes that can be used as well. But if you're using it to watch YouTube you're kind of missing the point of amateur radio - it's about communication, not watching Youtube videos. Things like embedded meshes and other experimental work are fine, but YouTube is really more of a cellphone thing.
- melling 11y ago
  I've had my ham license for about 20 years but I really never used it. I thought packet would be interesting but it was limited. Never really got into talking on my radio and just threw it in a box. Computers and the Internet were always more interesting. Are there other projects that are more appealing to those who simply want to dabble in electronics?
  - privong 11y ago
    > Are there other projects that are more appealing to those who simply want to dabble in electronics? For building electronics, there's the strong ham radio tradition of homebrew and kit assembly of various transmitting/receiving equipment. Also, there are a number of widely used digital modes, such as PSK31, JT9, WSPR, etc.[e.g., 0, 1], several of which are relatively new. They have low data rates but work quite well with narrow bandwidths and low power. And as @PaulHoule mentioned[2], there is also APRS. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psk31 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psk31 [1] http://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/index.html http://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/index.html [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11110741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11110741
    - grandalf 11y ago
PaulHoule 11y ago
Packet radio with the ISS is sweet, also a lot of hams use APRS which is a lot of fun.

by pingec 11y ago

Gracana 11y ago

Modern (absolutely enormous) websites and ssl make packet radio internet gateways a difficult proposition.

Ao7bei3s 11y ago
@Encryption: Not really. If you have an expensive gateway anyway, you can just terminate the SSL there.
- 6d6b73 11y ago
  You can't. FCC does not allow radio traffic to be encrypted on Ham bands.
  - Ao7bei3s 11y ago
    Internet <---(ssl,ethernet)---> Gateway <----(plaintext,radio)-----> Ham Insecure, but that's exactly the point. (Also: ham radio in general, not just the FCC. Over here, it's the BNetzA.)

pps43 11y ago

Internet is much less useful without encryption, when you can't even log in to any web application.

freehunter 11y ago
There's plenty on the Internet that doesn't require a log in. Wikipedia stands out pretty well. If the Internet shut down tomorrow, Wikipedia over Packet Radio would be pretty useful.
luxpir 11y ago
I may be wrong on this one, but I'm sure I've read in several articles over the years that encryption is permissible if you host the keys publicly/online somewhere. Now I know what the immediate response to that is, because it's mine too, but your problem with drive-by, opportunistic eavesdropping is semi-solved if the location of your keys is only known to your logbook and any inspectors who come knocking. Besides, there may be wiggle-room for allowing encryption on new bands in the future, given that all mobile and most home internet use is over radio now anyway. Exciting times. I'm just about to take my test for the Intermediate license in the UK and this is the direction I want to research. 5G area-wide networks, micropayments, etc. As a side-note, I hope I live to see a true zero infrastructure meshnet internet, where every house or device has an omnidirectional HF/VHF/UHF antenna to connect to the completely decentralised web, at speed, for all comms. That'd be neat. -- EDIT: Some resources I've dug up: - http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Data%20Encryption%20is%20Legal.pdf http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Data%20Encryptio... - https://rietta.com/blog/2009/08/17/authentication-without-encryption-for/ https://rietta.com/blog/2009/08/17/authentication-without-en... - http://rsaxvc.net/blog/2014/2/1/Encryption%20and%20Amateur%20Radio.html http://rsaxvc.net/blog/2014/2/1/Encryption%20and%20Amateur%2... Clearly much room for discussion and interpretation still. And these rules vary per country, so you can imagine picking up broadcasts from more lax countries that were encrypted...
adrusi 11y ago
Its a major limitation, but you can still authenticate yourself using a cryptographic signature. This is enough to make services that deal with public data like wikipedia and twitter.

metafex 11y ago

Check out HAMNET, it's not self-soldering everything, but to do proper packet-radio you need a DSP or a powerfull CPU to process the signals anyway. There is also always SDR which makes it easier to experiment with new protocols. As to YT over ham radio: there's ATV (amateur television) and you can/could? (check your regional regulations for audio broadcasts) send radio streams on some bands. As long as it stays true to the ham-spirit, you should be ok. (I can't speak for what the ARRL allows on what bands and so on, i have an old yearbook stashed away somewhere, but i'm not american, so...) vy 73

Ao7bei3s 11y ago

I find the general lack of interest in exploring new things in ham radio sad. I'm really happy that SDRs are cheap now and that's making things somewhat better. It seems that most (or at least very many) hams just do contesting, where there is no innovation or even just learning something new at all and doing well is just a matter of good antenna placement, high power (except for QRP), training and perseverance in repeating the same letters for hours on end. For decades! Antenna and transmitter characteristics (the equipment is off-the-shelve anyway) and propagation conditions (in contests, all signals are 59 anyway) are really well-researched by now, so why are we wasting time and bands on contests? Unfortunately most hams don't take the suggestion to stop contesting too well.

intrasight 11y ago
Your statements demonstrate a misunderstanding of the fundamental purpose of ham radio and contesting. Ham radio is civilization's backup when the shit hits the fan. Contesting is how they maintain the backup network.
- Ao7bei3s 11y ago
  Communication in case of disasters is not the fundamental purpose of ham radio, it's one purpose. The others are research, education and exchange between peoples and just as important. Contests don't serve any of these well. Stations are being used outside of contests too, and DX QSOs are being done outside of contests too (besides, DX capability isn't that important in case of disaster. also the DX bands 'need' unwieldy antennas and the skywave unreliability and the ground/skywave gap doesn't help. the local 2m/70cm repeater would be much more useful -- portable 2m/70cm HTs are cheap+common.). There are hams that do care about disaster communication and prepare for it. These are good to have. It involves more than contesting though (e.g. actually transmitting information instead of skipping even trivial things like proper signal reports just to be faster, advance coordination with civil services, independence of power grid...).
  - intrasight 11y ago
    I agree that there are other purposes, but from society's standpoint "backup" is the fundamental purpose. If the existing contest rules are not well geared towards that objective, then they should tweak the rules.

paulmd 11y ago

If you have a license, you should know why not - there's just not enough bandwidth for that to be a widespread practice. There's a reason cell companies are paying big bucks for spectrum. 802.11b has a bandwidth of 22 MHz. The entire 2m VHF allocation for amateur radio is 4 MHz. The entire 70cm UHF allocation is 30 MHz, and there's another 26 MHz at 33cm. Now, with a license you can use much higher output power (up to 1.5 KW depending on the band), including on 2.4 GHz. A high-gain antenna and some power can go quite far. And there's also fast-scan Amateur Television (ATV) and slow-scan television modes that can be used as well. But if you're using it to watch YouTube you're kind of missing the point of amateur radio - it's about communication, not watching Youtube videos. Things like embedded meshes and other experimental work are fine, but YouTube is really more of a cellphone thing.

melling 11y ago
I've had my ham license for about 20 years but I really never used it. I thought packet would be interesting but it was limited. Never really got into talking on my radio and just threw it in a box. Computers and the Internet were always more interesting. Are there other projects that are more appealing to those who simply want to dabble in electronics?
- privong 11y ago
  > Are there other projects that are more appealing to those who simply want to dabble in electronics? For building electronics, there's the strong ham radio tradition of homebrew and kit assembly of various transmitting/receiving equipment. Also, there are a number of widely used digital modes, such as PSK31, JT9, WSPR, etc.[e.g., 0, 1], several of which are relatively new. They have low data rates but work quite well with narrow bandwidths and low power. And as @PaulHoule mentioned[2], there is also APRS. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psk31 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psk31 [1] http://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/index.html http://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/index.html [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11110741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11110741
  - grandalf 11y ago

PaulHoule 11y ago

Packet radio with the ISS is sweet, also a lot of hams use APRS which is a lot of fun.