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Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

199 points by bhouston 11y ago

Raticide 11y ago
That website looks awful, full of clickbait titles and stupid scam adverts. Doesn't seem like a trustworthy source at all.
profeta 11y ago
warning: site has auto-play audio ads. (for people that only block flash, and not ads in general)
samstave 11y ago
Stuxnet was such an amazing event. The speculation at first, the quasi confirmation a little later based on certain items in the code. The dissection of it and the tech talks by Microsoft and others on its design and build... And then that it had a successor - and now it comes out that Israel and US squabbling over what team did what which allowed it to be exposed. It is such an amazing cornerstone in the cyberpunk reality of where the world is heading. If you haven't watched the tech talks on stuxnet and duqu, please do - super interesting. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOwMW6agpTI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOwMW6agpTI https://www.ted.com/talks/ralph_langner_cracking_stuxnet_a_21st_century_cyberweapon?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/ralph_langner_cracking_stuxnet_a_2... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P_nOg4Os6qg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P_nOg4Os6qg
- Jerry2 11y ago
  >If you haven't watched the tech talks on stuxnet and duqu, please do - super interesting. If you or someone else has some recommendations on which ones are worth watching, please do let us know.
  - samstave 11y ago
    Updated with some linkage
  - AsyncAwait 11y ago
    For a broader overview of Stuxnet and the surrounding situation, I would recommend the book "Countdown to Zero Day" - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0770436196 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0770436196
- agopaul 11y ago
  I read this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18465875-countdown-to-zero-day https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18465875-countdown-to-ze... but haven't watched anything related to Stuxnet. Do you have any specific talks to recommend?
  - samstave 11y ago
    Updated
obelisk_ 11y ago
>Pictures of then-Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s visit to the Natanz facility helped the experts obtain needed intelligence on the computers. The computers, their configuration and their rear connections can be seen clearly in the pictures. Eventually, these entry and exit points served as portals to implant the virus. I doubt that this alone was all they needed. Probably once they had identified the vendors of the equipment, they retrieved the purchase orders from those vendors, either with or without the knowledge of said vendors.
- gk1 11y ago
  Which is why it says they "helped," implying there were other factors.
- samstave 11y ago
  Regardless, it's a pretty industrious tactic, albeit obvious, still impressive - esp considering what they produced building on that info the gleaned.
- lucio 11y ago
  http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/528cf418eab8ea305c969d2a/the-stuxnet-attack-on-irans-nuclear-plant-was-far-more-dangerous-than-previously-thought.jpg http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/528cf418eab8ea305c9...
- ArnoldP 11y ago
  It also helps the idea that the highest administration at the time brought about their own downfall with something as trivial as a pr stunt.
henrikschroder 11y ago
> a deadly virus that penetrated computers > a “vaccine” for their computers > the secret formula for writing the code for the virus software > these entry and exit points served as portals to implant the virus. > the most deadly version of the virus I don't know if this is a result of the journalist, or the film that is the source material, but that's way too many bad biological parallels to describe a computer virus.
- ethbro 11y ago
  I prefer people write in a vocabulary that's native to me as well, but I don't see any of these as being inaccurate analogies.
jorgecurio 11y ago
what confuses me about the US-Israeli relationship is that the most of the times they work well but at times one is always sabatoging each other in a manner that makes you reconsider, is Israel and enemy or a friend to the United States? I don't think Japan would pull off shit like this. It's like there's a four tier system to what defines a US Ally. Platinum - Gets you exclusive access to black funds & latest weapons no other allies are getting. Discounted oil from Saudi too. Gold - Gets you access to aids and credit line with the IMF. You get the top grade weapons that other allies wish they were getting haha. Silver - Gets you access to some aids and political credit for your election periods in your country. Free defense of your country, we'll even pay half the cost of our stay. Bronze - Gets honorable mention in speeches and aids but don't count on our diplomatic support. You are largely left on your own to defend your country. We'll sell you some of our refurbished weapons and overstocked weaponry at a discount or if you buy our bonds. edit: why the downvotes? seems like any comment that seems to critcize US-Israel relationship on here are automatically downvoted to oblivion. As a Canadian, all of this is very confusing. A) Why in the fuck would the most powerful country succumb to a particular smaller country but nobody else B) Why in the fuck nobody is allowed to question the arrangement? C) Why are people who think Jesus will return in Israel (mental illness?) are allowed to make decisions on behalf of people who don't agree with it? And to people who say both countries are acting in a way that maximizes their national interests, yet certain actions by certain country are seemingly kosher (no pun intended) while if another country in the similar position did the same actions, there would be severe punitive and a concerted diplomatic backlash and media smearing. All but one particular country seems to get a free golden pass on literally all aspects that influence United State's national interests. The US gets less than what Israel gets out of the relationship. What was US's big reward for helping Israel? It incited attack from other anti-Israeli terrorists and continue to place the national security at risk just to further some geopolitical goals in some remote place that has nothing to do with the average American. The emperor wears no clothes, and as a Canadian I just pointed out what I'm seeing. I have no stake in this argument or have mistrust or hatred for Israeli people and American peoples, but it's not hard to see the level of mistrust each countries populace has towards their own government's policy.
- brightball 11y ago
semantec 11y ago
Semantec... Symantec.
alphanumericdog 11y ago
when did america become israels bitch? our troops are out there getting blown up and these israeli jews and sitting at home making their kids tech billionaires? all these young kids being brainwashed into thinking a communist jew like sanders is good for the country when he has his hidden agenda with israel. why is the us helping the israelis when the jews in america are determining the course of the US life? corrupting american culture with their bullshit ass rap music made by drake? running every media outlet and late night talk show hosts to afraid to say anything about jews? Jews will take their snake hands and bite you but will cry out in pain themselves. edit no offense to paul graham
suprgeek 11y ago
Hate to turn this into a political thread when there is so much info about software but.... The sheer arrogance with with Israel operates is just something else. They seem to to believe that no action they take will ever be questioned or lead to any blowback. The almost total control of US Foreign policy that they have now makes me think that the Iran deal being operationalized was nothing sort of a coup for Pres. Obama. If I were a conspiracy nut, I would be looking very closely at how those two US naval boats drifted that close to an Iranian base on the eve of the agreement coming into force.
- ryanlol 11y ago
  The sheer arrogance with with $country operates is just something else.
  - nathanlied 11y ago
    Not all countries would be included there. The US? Russia? North Korea? Sure. Finland? Iceland? Not so much. There is something to be said about a country's foreign policy and how 'arrogant' it is. A country can have a solid foreign policy (read: not be a pushover) and still not act like a giant bully.
    - throwaway27_35 11y ago
      Someone else has pointed this out elsewhere but it's a bit odd to compare israel to scandanavian countries rather than the middle eastern countries that surround it. So let's ask the same question again: is Israel's behavior arrogant? Possibly, but not really when compared to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria or Qatar
    - ryanlol 11y ago
      One could argue that the whole independence thing is pretty arrogant in the case of Finland for example.
- TheGuyWhoCodes 11y ago
  "They seem to to believe that no action they take will ever be questioned or lead to any blowback" - That's not true. Like any country Israel wights the pros and cons of any decision. Some work in their favor some don't. If you think Israel doesn't taken into account the repercussions to it's actions you are gravely mistaken. I agree with you that Israel tries and succeeds in influencing US Foreign policy, why wouldn't any country do that if it works in their favor? Why is Israel being criticized of this when any other country including the UK, France, Germany, Iran, Egypt are doing the same?
maximmilius_rob 11y ago
Israel is important ally of usa in the middle east.
- is_this_tinder 11y ago
  good goy
alphanumericdog 11y ago
when did america become israels bitch? our troops are out there getting blown up and these israeli jews and sitting at home making their kids tech billionaires? all these young kids being brainwashed into thinking a communist jew like sanders is good for the country when he has his hidden agenda with israel. why is the us helping the israelis when the jews in america are determining the course of the US life? corrupting american culture with their bullshit ass rap music made by drake? running every media outlet and late night talk show hosts to afraid to say anything about jews? Jews will take their snake hands and bite you but will cry out in pain themselves. edit no offense to paul graham
is_this_tinder 11y ago
>jews in charge of refactoring
ars 11y ago
> In this way, after the strongest version of the virus was implanted in order to increase the force of the damage to the centrifuges at Natanz, the virus .... began to "jump from computer to computer" I don't see how one follows from the other. One talks about the virus causing additional damage to centrifuges rather than minor damage. The other is about increased infectiousness. They are two different things and they are just tied together as if there is some relationship between them. This article is almost completely devoid of any evidence, or even a plausible logical explanation/motivation.
- sigmar 11y ago
  >The other is about increased infectiousness. Perhaps the additional damage is caused by increased infectiousness since the virus would be spread through more diverse intermediaries on its way to various centrifuge systems? >This article is almost completely devoid of any evidence, or even a plausible logical explanation/motivation. Well this article is reporting on what is stated in a forthcoming movie, not performing an investigation
  - ihsw 11y ago
    > Perhaps the additional damage is caused by increased infectiousness since the virus would be spread through more diverse intermediaries on its way to various centrifuge systems? And there it is. Fingerprinting the variety of recipients takes time and effort, as well as producing viable payloads to assert control over them.
- saint_fiasco 11y ago
  I think additional damage means something like "breaks more centrifuges". A virus that does nos spread can only break a single centrifuge per attack.
hackuser 11y ago
Remember that while Israel is a first world country, it's tiny. It's population is 8.4 million, 1/40th of the U.S. and about the size of New York City proper (not suburban, which is ~20 million). Probably the Israeli government does not have the same level of talent and other resources that the U.S. government does. Imagine if the NSA was staffed only with residents of NYC, for example. (However, 3 of 8 US Supreme Court Justices are from NYC, and Alito and Scalia are/were from NJ.)
- BWStearns 11y ago
  This is a bit offset by their large proportional tech sector and compulsory service. The NSA (and gov tech in general) would be a hell of a lot better if everyone had to do a year or two of government service. Clarification: not to imply that the NSA is bad at their job currently, but if they could borrow two years off of every technical person in the country I can't see how that could hurt.
  - wernercd 11y ago
    Yes and no... Yes, because there would be a bigger pool to choose from. For the same reason that bigger schools have better sports teams: More Athletic types... Having a bigger pool of candidates means you have more chance to get specific with your choices. No, because then you would be using the "Draft". There is a reason the US moved away from it in after Vietnam and went to an "All Volunteer" force. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Sta... ) Personally, I think those types of services (Military, FBI, etc) should be volunteer... last thing you want is your back being guarded or secrets been covered by someone who doesn't agree with or want to be there.
    - BWStearns 11y ago
      Definitely agree on the logic around a negative impact of a draft based service. I was thinking more along the lines of the Swiss model where you can go be a teacher or a ski patrolman and it'll still count rather than a Korea/Vietnam style thing.
samstave 11y ago
[in response to the anti Jew comments below]: This is just bad. Trust me I have @dang all over me when I make poor/emotional comments, but this is just ignorant. Nobody cares that the Israelis are Jews, we care when they (and any other homo Sapiens) act like assholes. So this is not a Jewish issue, per se, it's an asshole issue, let's be clear about that.
- littletimmy 11y ago
  What anti-Jew comments? There aren't any.
  - samstave 11y ago
    They are getting flagged and deleted, comments by user @is_this_tinder for example... You need to likely turn on "see dead links" in your profile to see them.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - dfc 11y ago
    HN is not a magical land where people do not leave moronic comments. Between users flagging comments and dang a lot of comments get killed. If you would like to see what HN would look like without some level of moderation turn on show-dead in your preferences. The anti-semetic idiots will be at the bottom of the page.
  - JohnD19 11y ago
    There are not any because the masters delete them. And "any" means any comment that is critical against Israel and is immediately flagged as "anti-semitic" by the watchdogs/lapdogs. What a discrace.
    - dang 11y ago
      Comments critical of Israel are one thing (plenty of those in this thread), anti-semitic slurs are another. This is hardly a hard call. Also the 'masters' here are the users flagging the latter, quite rightly.
BWStearns 11y ago
>> The deadly virus >> “changed the code” (the scare quotes bit) >> to invent a “vaccine” >> the secret formula... fell into the hands of Russia and Iran >> increasingly stronger versions of the virus >> the most deadly version of the virus Is anyone else not wild about the manner in which "cyber" articles get written? I feel like non-technical readers are left mildly concerned that they're going to come down with a case of the stuxnet and die, or that now that Russia and Iran have a copy of stuxnet we're all doomed. Most of the language regarding the virus seemed more appropriate for an actual bioweapon. It'd be nice if there were a bit more focus on educating the public than scaring them.
- S_A_P 11y ago
  I chalked it up to a language barrier, but yeah, it was very dramatic language used to describe computer code...
- iSnow 11y ago
  That whole newspaper site seems pretty low-brow and clickbaity.
- sangnoir 11y ago
  MOst of the quotes made sense to me: >> “changed the code” (the scare quotes bit) Might not be scare quotes but a direct quotation >> to invent a “vaccine” This is pretty obvious - an antivirus >> the secret formula... fell into the hands of Russia and Iran They got a way to get the virus' signature, as well as copies to reverse-engineer >> increasingly stronger versions of the virus >> the most deadly version of the virus Might refer to virulence or how quickly the effects were ramped up. The most effective viruses are not the most transmissible (burn themselves out and/or are quickly noticed) > now that Russia and Iran have a copy of stuxnet we're all doomed not doomed per se, but it would probably be better for the average american if this hadn't happened. The worst thing about this, IMO, is that it set a very public precedent on the use of 'cyber-weaponry', costing the US moral high-ground
  - BWStearns 11y ago
    With the exception of me missing that they were not scare quotes but rather direct quotes, I understood all of the referenced text. I just wanted to point out that the way it is written is not the best way to help inform the general public about cybersabotage and espionage campaigns. While using such language directed towards an expert crowd for giggles doesn't do any harm it contributes to the general atmosphere of panic to tell a general audience that Russia and Iran now have "the secret formula for the most deadly version of the virus". My parents don't know for sure that that virus won't kill you, computers are very scary for them, they might think stuxnet is in their car trying to kill them now.
fsck--off 11y ago
If you want to read more about the two different Stuxnet attacks, I highly recommend Ralph Langner's 2013 write-up "To Kill A Centrifuge" http://www.langner.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/To-kill-a-centrifuge.pdf http://www.langner.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/To-kill... (36 page PDF) Langner was the first researcher (outside of those who were involved in its creation) to discover Stuxnet.
- rqebmm 11y ago
  It's interesting reading that doc in light of this news, as Langer notes that in 2009 the attack vector changed significantly, from a stealthy, bespoke, pressure-oriented attack, to a more vicious but easier to identify rotor-speed attack (the one we've all heard of), and also increased its infectivity by self-propagating. > "Whatever the effect of the overpressure attack was, the attackers decided to try something different in 2009. That may have been motivated by the fact that the overpressure attack was lethal just by accident, that it didn’t achieve anything, or – that somebody simply decided to check out something new and fresh." > "Summing up, the differences between the two Stuxnet variants discussed here are striking. In the newer version, the attackers became less concerned about being detected. It seems a stretch to say that they wanted to be discovered, but they were certainly pushing the envelope and accepting the risk." > "The dramatic differences between both versions point to changing priorities that will most likely have been accompanied by a change in stakeholders. " I wonder if that's when the Israelis got involved? Also, this is shockingly readable for the depth and subject matter!
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
TheGuyWhoCodes 11y ago
I find it hard to believe that top secret information like this would be confirmed by top US officials. Why declassify this information? what possible outcome were they hoping to achieve? It's obviously a smear campaign against Israel, i'd take it with a grain of salt.
JohnD19 11y ago
I was just wondering. Why on earth would a dubious post from an Israeli newspaper end up on hacker news? Is the article more important than the fact the Israel occupies territories illegally neglecting UN resolutions, pushing out Palestians and using humuliating tactics as well doing immense practice shootings at young palestinians protecting their home( before it is brought down). What angers me though, is that international community does not say anything about the jihandis getting treated in Israel when they get shot doing their "mercenary services" in Syria. One more thing: while there are americans dying out in the street being homeless, american goverment supplies fincancial aid to Israel that covers up to its 25% of its budget!
IvanDenisovich 11y ago
In any large organization you'll see instances of departments clashing over projects, managers going over each others' heads and bureaucratic turf wars. I'm sure these disputes are at least as common inside the NSA, or between different branches of US intelligence, as they are between the US and its allies. The difference here is that in an international setting, our national ego comes into play and suddenly it's all about the Israeli lobby or some deep geopolitical interests, when it could just as easily be caused by a SW bug or an overzealous midlevel manager. Maybe there is a place for a broader discussion about supplying arms to Israel, but I don't think this case is a good example. Looks more like Israel and the US collaborated very closely, on mostly equal terms, to achieve some impressive technological breakthroughs. If anything, this is a testament to how technology and international cooperation can provide a safe and efficient alternative to unilateral use of of force. If the worst side-effect of all of our covert and overt operations was leaking some Zero Days, the world would be a much safer place.
- SturgeonsLaw 11y ago
  > I'm sure these disputes are at least as common inside the NSA Given the NSA's contradictory mandates to both improve and weaken security, I think you're definitely on to something.
jqm 11y ago
I guess I'm ok with Stuxnet. What I am most decidedly not OK with is the assassination of Iranian scientists. Iran has a right to be upset... it's only a wonder they aren't more upset.
13thLetter 11y ago
It's sad how quickly a comment section on a story about Israel fills up with conspiracy theories about perfidous Zionists owning the US government, even on a normally more rational place like HN. It feels like this is the Guardian or something. Maybe we need to take a hard look at ourselves here.

199 points by bhouston 11y ago

That website looks awful, full of clickbait titles and stupid scam adverts. Doesn't seem like a trustworthy source at all.

profeta 11y ago

warning: site has auto-play audio ads. (for people that only block flash, and not ads in general)

samstave 11y ago

Stuxnet was such an amazing event. The speculation at first, the quasi confirmation a little later based on certain items in the code. The dissection of it and the tech talks by Microsoft and others on its design and build... And then that it had a successor - and now it comes out that Israel and US squabbling over what team did what which allowed it to be exposed. It is such an amazing cornerstone in the cyberpunk reality of where the world is heading. If you haven't watched the tech talks on stuxnet and duqu, please do - super interesting. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOwMW6agpTI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOwMW6agpTI https://www.ted.com/talks/ralph_langner_cracking_stuxnet_a_21st_century_cyberweapon?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/ralph_langner_cracking_stuxnet_a_2... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P_nOg4Os6qg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P_nOg4Os6qg

Jerry2 11y ago
>If you haven't watched the tech talks on stuxnet and duqu, please do - super interesting. If you or someone else has some recommendations on which ones are worth watching, please do let us know.
- samstave 11y ago
  Updated with some linkage
- AsyncAwait 11y ago
  For a broader overview of Stuxnet and the surrounding situation, I would recommend the book "Countdown to Zero Day" - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0770436196 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0770436196
agopaul 11y ago
I read this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18465875-countdown-to-zero-day https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18465875-countdown-to-ze... but haven't watched anything related to Stuxnet. Do you have any specific talks to recommend?
- samstave 11y ago
  Updated

obelisk_ 11y ago

>Pictures of then-Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s visit to the Natanz facility helped the experts obtain needed intelligence on the computers. The computers, their configuration and their rear connections can be seen clearly in the pictures. Eventually, these entry and exit points served as portals to implant the virus. I doubt that this alone was all they needed. Probably once they had identified the vendors of the equipment, they retrieved the purchase orders from those vendors, either with or without the knowledge of said vendors.

gk1 11y ago
Which is why it says they "helped," implying there were other factors.
samstave 11y ago
Regardless, it's a pretty industrious tactic, albeit obvious, still impressive - esp considering what they produced building on that info the gleaned.
lucio 11y ago
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/528cf418eab8ea305c969d2a/the-stuxnet-attack-on-irans-nuclear-plant-was-far-more-dangerous-than-previously-thought.jpg http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/528cf418eab8ea305c9...
ArnoldP 11y ago
It also helps the idea that the highest administration at the time brought about their own downfall with something as trivial as a pr stunt.

henrikschroder 11y ago

> a deadly virus that penetrated computers > a “vaccine” for their computers > the secret formula for writing the code for the virus software > these entry and exit points served as portals to implant the virus. > the most deadly version of the virus I don't know if this is a result of the journalist, or the film that is the source material, but that's way too many bad biological parallels to describe a computer virus.

ethbro 11y ago
I prefer people write in a vocabulary that's native to me as well, but I don't see any of these as being inaccurate analogies.

jorgecurio 11y ago

what confuses me about the US-Israeli relationship is that the most of the times they work well but at times one is always sabatoging each other in a manner that makes you reconsider, is Israel and enemy or a friend to the United States? I don't think Japan would pull off shit like this. It's like there's a four tier system to what defines a US Ally. Platinum - Gets you exclusive access to black funds & latest weapons no other allies are getting. Discounted oil from Saudi too. Gold - Gets you access to aids and credit line with the IMF. You get the top grade weapons that other allies wish they were getting haha. Silver - Gets you access to some aids and political credit for your election periods in your country. Free defense of your country, we'll even pay half the cost of our stay. Bronze - Gets honorable mention in speeches and aids but don't count on our diplomatic support. You are largely left on your own to defend your country. We'll sell you some of our refurbished weapons and overstocked weaponry at a discount or if you buy our bonds. edit: why the downvotes? seems like any comment that seems to critcize US-Israel relationship on here are automatically downvoted to oblivion. As a Canadian, all of this is very confusing. A) Why in the fuck would the most powerful country succumb to a particular smaller country but nobody else B) Why in the fuck nobody is allowed to question the arrangement? C) Why are people who think Jesus will return in Israel (mental illness?) are allowed to make decisions on behalf of people who don't agree with it? And to people who say both countries are acting in a way that maximizes their national interests, yet certain actions by certain country are seemingly kosher (no pun intended) while if another country in the similar position did the same actions, there would be severe punitive and a concerted diplomatic backlash and media smearing. All but one particular country seems to get a free golden pass on literally all aspects that influence United State's national interests. The US gets less than what Israel gets out of the relationship. What was US's big reward for helping Israel? It incited attack from other anti-Israeli terrorists and continue to place the national security at risk just to further some geopolitical goals in some remote place that has nothing to do with the average American. The emperor wears no clothes, and as a Canadian I just pointed out what I'm seeing. I have no stake in this argument or have mistrust or hatred for Israeli people and American peoples, but it's not hard to see the level of mistrust each countries populace has towards their own government's policy.

brightball 11y ago

semantec 11y ago

Semantec... Symantec.

alphanumericdog 11y ago

when did america become israels bitch? our troops are out there getting blown up and these israeli jews and sitting at home making their kids tech billionaires? all these young kids being brainwashed into thinking a communist jew like sanders is good for the country when he has his hidden agenda with israel. why is the us helping the israelis when the jews in america are determining the course of the US life? corrupting american culture with their bullshit ass rap music made by drake? running every media outlet and late night talk show hosts to afraid to say anything about jews? Jews will take their snake hands and bite you but will cry out in pain themselves. edit no offense to paul graham

suprgeek 11y ago

Hate to turn this into a political thread when there is so much info about software but.... The sheer arrogance with with Israel operates is just something else. They seem to to believe that no action they take will ever be questioned or lead to any blowback. The almost total control of US Foreign policy that they have now makes me think that the Iran deal being operationalized was nothing sort of a coup for Pres. Obama. If I were a conspiracy nut, I would be looking very closely at how those two US naval boats drifted that close to an Iranian base on the eve of the agreement coming into force.

ryanlol 11y ago
The sheer arrogance with with $country operates is just something else.
- nathanlied 11y ago
  Not all countries would be included there. The US? Russia? North Korea? Sure. Finland? Iceland? Not so much. There is something to be said about a country's foreign policy and how 'arrogant' it is. A country can have a solid foreign policy (read: not be a pushover) and still not act like a giant bully.
  - throwaway27_35 11y ago
    Someone else has pointed this out elsewhere but it's a bit odd to compare israel to scandanavian countries rather than the middle eastern countries that surround it. So let's ask the same question again: is Israel's behavior arrogant? Possibly, but not really when compared to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria or Qatar
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    One could argue that the whole independence thing is pretty arrogant in the case of Finland for example.
TheGuyWhoCodes 11y ago
"They seem to to believe that no action they take will ever be questioned or lead to any blowback" - That's not true. Like any country Israel wights the pros and cons of any decision. Some work in their favor some don't. If you think Israel doesn't taken into account the repercussions to it's actions you are gravely mistaken. I agree with you that Israel tries and succeeds in influencing US Foreign policy, why wouldn't any country do that if it works in their favor? Why is Israel being criticized of this when any other country including the UK, France, Germany, Iran, Egypt are doing the same?

maximmilius_rob 11y ago

Israel is important ally of usa in the middle east.

is_this_tinder 11y ago
good goy

alphanumericdog 11y ago

is_this_tinder 11y ago

>jews in charge of refactoring

ars 11y ago

> In this way, after the strongest version of the virus was implanted in order to increase the force of the damage to the centrifuges at Natanz, the virus .... began to "jump from computer to computer" I don't see how one follows from the other. One talks about the virus causing additional damage to centrifuges rather than minor damage. The other is about increased infectiousness. They are two different things and they are just tied together as if there is some relationship between them. This article is almost completely devoid of any evidence, or even a plausible logical explanation/motivation.

sigmar 11y ago
>The other is about increased infectiousness. Perhaps the additional damage is caused by increased infectiousness since the virus would be spread through more diverse intermediaries on its way to various centrifuge systems? >This article is almost completely devoid of any evidence, or even a plausible logical explanation/motivation. Well this article is reporting on what is stated in a forthcoming movie, not performing an investigation
- ihsw 11y ago
  > Perhaps the additional damage is caused by increased infectiousness since the virus would be spread through more diverse intermediaries on its way to various centrifuge systems? And there it is. Fingerprinting the variety of recipients takes time and effort, as well as producing viable payloads to assert control over them.
saint_fiasco 11y ago
I think additional damage means something like "breaks more centrifuges". A virus that does nos spread can only break a single centrifuge per attack.

hackuser 11y ago

Remember that while Israel is a first world country, it's tiny. It's population is 8.4 million, 1/40th of the U.S. and about the size of New York City proper (not suburban, which is ~20 million). Probably the Israeli government does not have the same level of talent and other resources that the U.S. government does. Imagine if the NSA was staffed only with residents of NYC, for example. (However, 3 of 8 US Supreme Court Justices are from NYC, and Alito and Scalia are/were from NJ.)

BWStearns 11y ago
This is a bit offset by their large proportional tech sector and compulsory service. The NSA (and gov tech in general) would be a hell of a lot better if everyone had to do a year or two of government service. Clarification: not to imply that the NSA is bad at their job currently, but if they could borrow two years off of every technical person in the country I can't see how that could hurt.
- wernercd 11y ago
  Yes and no... Yes, because there would be a bigger pool to choose from. For the same reason that bigger schools have better sports teams: More Athletic types... Having a bigger pool of candidates means you have more chance to get specific with your choices. No, because then you would be using the "Draft". There is a reason the US moved away from it in after Vietnam and went to an "All Volunteer" force. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Sta... ) Personally, I think those types of services (Military, FBI, etc) should be volunteer... last thing you want is your back being guarded or secrets been covered by someone who doesn't agree with or want to be there.
  - BWStearns 11y ago
    Definitely agree on the logic around a negative impact of a draft based service. I was thinking more along the lines of the Swiss model where you can go be a teacher or a ski patrolman and it'll still count rather than a Korea/Vietnam style thing.

samstave 11y ago

[in response to the anti Jew comments below]: This is just bad. Trust me I have @dang all over me when I make poor/emotional comments, but this is just ignorant. Nobody cares that the Israelis are Jews, we care when they (and any other homo Sapiens) act like assholes. So this is not a Jewish issue, per se, it's an asshole issue, let's be clear about that.

littletimmy 11y ago
What anti-Jew comments? There aren't any.
- samstave 11y ago
  They are getting flagged and deleted, comments by user @is_this_tinder for example... You need to likely turn on "see dead links" in your profile to see them.
- deleted 11y ago
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- dfc 11y ago
  HN is not a magical land where people do not leave moronic comments. Between users flagging comments and dang a lot of comments get killed. If you would like to see what HN would look like without some level of moderation turn on show-dead in your preferences. The anti-semetic idiots will be at the bottom of the page.
- JohnD19 11y ago
  There are not any because the masters delete them. And "any" means any comment that is critical against Israel and is immediately flagged as "anti-semitic" by the watchdogs/lapdogs. What a discrace.
  - dang 11y ago
    Comments critical of Israel are one thing (plenty of those in this thread), anti-semitic slurs are another. This is hardly a hard call. Also the 'masters' here are the users flagging the latter, quite rightly.

BWStearns 11y ago

>> The deadly virus >> “changed the code” (the scare quotes bit) >> to invent a “vaccine” >> the secret formula... fell into the hands of Russia and Iran >> increasingly stronger versions of the virus >> the most deadly version of the virus Is anyone else not wild about the manner in which "cyber" articles get written? I feel like non-technical readers are left mildly concerned that they're going to come down with a case of the stuxnet and die, or that now that Russia and Iran have a copy of stuxnet we're all doomed. Most of the language regarding the virus seemed more appropriate for an actual bioweapon. It'd be nice if there were a bit more focus on educating the public than scaring them.

S_A_P 11y ago
I chalked it up to a language barrier, but yeah, it was very dramatic language used to describe computer code...
iSnow 11y ago
That whole newspaper site seems pretty low-brow and clickbaity.
sangnoir 11y ago
MOst of the quotes made sense to me: >> “changed the code” (the scare quotes bit) Might not be scare quotes but a direct quotation >> to invent a “vaccine” This is pretty obvious - an antivirus >> the secret formula... fell into the hands of Russia and Iran They got a way to get the virus' signature, as well as copies to reverse-engineer >> increasingly stronger versions of the virus >> the most deadly version of the virus Might refer to virulence or how quickly the effects were ramped up. The most effective viruses are not the most transmissible (burn themselves out and/or are quickly noticed) > now that Russia and Iran have a copy of stuxnet we're all doomed not doomed per se, but it would probably be better for the average american if this hadn't happened. The worst thing about this, IMO, is that it set a very public precedent on the use of 'cyber-weaponry', costing the US moral high-ground
- BWStearns 11y ago
  With the exception of me missing that they were not scare quotes but rather direct quotes, I understood all of the referenced text. I just wanted to point out that the way it is written is not the best way to help inform the general public about cybersabotage and espionage campaigns. While using such language directed towards an expert crowd for giggles doesn't do any harm it contributes to the general atmosphere of panic to tell a general audience that Russia and Iran now have "the secret formula for the most deadly version of the virus". My parents don't know for sure that that virus won't kill you, computers are very scary for them, they might think stuxnet is in their car trying to kill them now.

fsck--off 11y ago

If you want to read more about the two different Stuxnet attacks, I highly recommend Ralph Langner's 2013 write-up "To Kill A Centrifuge" http://www.langner.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/To-kill-a-centrifuge.pdf http://www.langner.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/To-kill... (36 page PDF) Langner was the first researcher (outside of those who were involved in its creation) to discover Stuxnet.

rqebmm 11y ago
It's interesting reading that doc in light of this news, as Langer notes that in 2009 the attack vector changed significantly, from a stealthy, bespoke, pressure-oriented attack, to a more vicious but easier to identify rotor-speed attack (the one we've all heard of), and also increased its infectivity by self-propagating. > "Whatever the effect of the overpressure attack was, the attackers decided to try something different in 2009. That may have been motivated by the fact that the overpressure attack was lethal just by accident, that it didn’t achieve anything, or – that somebody simply decided to check out something new and fresh." > "Summing up, the differences between the two Stuxnet variants discussed here are striking. In the newer version, the attackers became less concerned about being detected. It seems a stretch to say that they wanted to be discovered, but they were certainly pushing the envelope and accepting the risk." > "The dramatic differences between both versions point to changing priorities that will most likely have been accompanied by a change in stakeholders. " I wonder if that's when the Israelis got involved? Also, this is shockingly readable for the depth and subject matter!
- deleted 11y ago
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TheGuyWhoCodes 11y ago

I find it hard to believe that top secret information like this would be confirmed by top US officials. Why declassify this information? what possible outcome were they hoping to achieve? It's obviously a smear campaign against Israel, i'd take it with a grain of salt.

JohnD19 11y ago

I was just wondering. Why on earth would a dubious post from an Israeli newspaper end up on hacker news? Is the article more important than the fact the Israel occupies territories illegally neglecting UN resolutions, pushing out Palestians and using humuliating tactics as well doing immense practice shootings at young palestinians protecting their home( before it is brought down). What angers me though, is that international community does not say anything about the jihandis getting treated in Israel when they get shot doing their "mercenary services" in Syria. One more thing: while there are americans dying out in the street being homeless, american goverment supplies fincancial aid to Israel that covers up to its 25% of its budget!

IvanDenisovich 11y ago

In any large organization you'll see instances of departments clashing over projects, managers going over each others' heads and bureaucratic turf wars. I'm sure these disputes are at least as common inside the NSA, or between different branches of US intelligence, as they are between the US and its allies. The difference here is that in an international setting, our national ego comes into play and suddenly it's all about the Israeli lobby or some deep geopolitical interests, when it could just as easily be caused by a SW bug or an overzealous midlevel manager. Maybe there is a place for a broader discussion about supplying arms to Israel, but I don't think this case is a good example. Looks more like Israel and the US collaborated very closely, on mostly equal terms, to achieve some impressive technological breakthroughs. If anything, this is a testament to how technology and international cooperation can provide a safe and efficient alternative to unilateral use of of force. If the worst side-effect of all of our covert and overt operations was leaking some Zero Days, the world would be a much safer place.

SturgeonsLaw 11y ago
> I'm sure these disputes are at least as common inside the NSA Given the NSA's contradictory mandates to both improve and weaken security, I think you're definitely on to something.

jqm 11y ago

I guess I'm ok with Stuxnet. What I am most decidedly not OK with is the assassination of Iranian scientists. Iran has a right to be upset... it's only a wonder they aren't more upset.

13thLetter 11y ago

It's sad how quickly a comment section on a story about Israel fills up with conspiracy theories about perfidous Zionists owning the US government, even on a normally more rational place like HN. It feels like this is the Guardian or something. Maybe we need to take a hard look at ourselves here.