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To expand on his migration point, I worry that BI will create inland ghettos where the BI allowance is enough on it's own to cover the cost of living. At least

To expand on his migration point, I worry that BI will create inland ghettos where the BI allowance is enough on it's own to cover the cost of living. At least some people would choose this lifestyle. Over time these ghettos would evolve their own cultures and start to be very separate from the rest of us. While I value personal freedom of an adult to chose to do this with their life, I worry about their children who will have a hard time leaving and I worry about internal fragmentation of our nation. I think overall the net positive effect of BI probably counteracts the concerns above - but it will be interesting to see if such a phenomenon develops in Finland.

bryanlarsen 11y ago
The best protection against this is the same as it is without BI: a high quality universal education system.
- sokoloff 11y ago
  At the youngest ages, kids learn more from the adults in their household than from all outsiders combined, including teachers. I think that cultural islands such as GP is worried about would not be entirely or even substantially broken down by any educational system.
socalnate1 11y ago
Doesn't the exact same thing happen now with poor areas? (i.e. evolve its own culture and make it hard for a child born in a poor area to leave)
- orthecreedence 11y ago
  No, in our current system everyone is equal and has the same opportunities as everyone else. The market is essentially a benevolent, moral being that cares for the sick and needy whilst rewarding the hard working. Joking aside, I'd be really interested to see what happens in an economy where starting a business is easy because you don't have to worry about it covering your basic needs. I'd imagine many people within ghettos would finally be able to leave and seek opportunities elsewhere, or be able to create their own opportunities within their current situation. Would some people sit around not working while spending money on drugs or booze? Of course. But those people exist already. I'd be interested to see how the ratio of these types of folks compares before and after BI, and also the ratio of people making money from jobs vs self-created small businesses. I really want another country to try this out =]. Not saying I don't want it for the US (I do, and if nothing else than for an interesting experiment), but I really don't see that happening with the weird fear we have of anything even remotely perceived as socialism/communism.
- acgourley 11y ago
  The current poor areas we have in America are still connected by market forces - jobs, social service providers, affordable housing, transit, road infrastructure, and others. Short of being subsistence farmers they cannot break too far off geographically or culturally because of all the tethers. BI lowers the bar from "people okay with sustenance farming" to "people okay with roughing it." In the extreme case the only tether needed is a dirt road or body of water suitable for a delivery vehicle to bring supplies[1]. You might ask who would be willing to break off from mainstream American culture so severely, and I think the easy answer is religions and cults. It could be this isn't as bad as I think - perhaps the cultural and religious development done in these communities would be valuable - but the point of this argument was to bring up something unexpected. [1] Coordinating the exchange of the BI for the supplies could be arranged in various ways. I think clever people will find loopholes and thus there isn't a practical way to force people to be present in "civilized" areas.
skybrian 11y ago
I think you just described Florida (for retirees). On the margin, basic income should make it easier to move, rather than getting stuck in one place because you're out of funds. I'd guess that applies to children too (when they grow up).

bryanlarsen 11y ago

The best protection against this is the same as it is without BI: a high quality universal education system.

sokoloff 11y ago
At the youngest ages, kids learn more from the adults in their household than from all outsiders combined, including teachers. I think that cultural islands such as GP is worried about would not be entirely or even substantially broken down by any educational system.

socalnate1 11y ago

Doesn't the exact same thing happen now with poor areas? (i.e. evolve its own culture and make it hard for a child born in a poor area to leave)

orthecreedence 11y ago
No, in our current system everyone is equal and has the same opportunities as everyone else. The market is essentially a benevolent, moral being that cares for the sick and needy whilst rewarding the hard working. Joking aside, I'd be really interested to see what happens in an economy where starting a business is easy because you don't have to worry about it covering your basic needs. I'd imagine many people within ghettos would finally be able to leave and seek opportunities elsewhere, or be able to create their own opportunities within their current situation. Would some people sit around not working while spending money on drugs or booze? Of course. But those people exist already. I'd be interested to see how the ratio of these types of folks compares before and after BI, and also the ratio of people making money from jobs vs self-created small businesses. I really want another country to try this out =]. Not saying I don't want it for the US (I do, and if nothing else than for an interesting experiment), but I really don't see that happening with the weird fear we have of anything even remotely perceived as socialism/communism.
acgourley 11y ago
The current poor areas we have in America are still connected by market forces - jobs, social service providers, affordable housing, transit, road infrastructure, and others. Short of being subsistence farmers they cannot break too far off geographically or culturally because of all the tethers. BI lowers the bar from "people okay with sustenance farming" to "people okay with roughing it." In the extreme case the only tether needed is a dirt road or body of water suitable for a delivery vehicle to bring supplies[1]. You might ask who would be willing to break off from mainstream American culture so severely, and I think the easy answer is religions and cults. It could be this isn't as bad as I think - perhaps the cultural and religious development done in these communities would be valuable - but the point of this argument was to bring up something unexpected. [1] Coordinating the exchange of the BI for the supplies could be arranged in various ways. I think clever people will find loopholes and thus there isn't a practical way to force people to be present in "civilized" areas.

skybrian 11y ago

I think you just described Florida (for retirees). On the margin, basic income should make it easier to move, rather than getting stuck in one place because you're out of funds. I'd guess that applies to children too (when they grow up).