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The main unintended consequence is that nobody is going to want to be a grocery store clerk for minimum wage if they get BI. Hence, salaries for menial jobs wil

by drcode 11y ago

The main unintended consequence is that nobody is going to want to be a grocery store clerk for minimum wage if they get BI. Hence, salaries for menial jobs will go through the roof... All of a sudden a gallon of milk will have to cost $20 to pay grocery store salaries... Now salaries will need to go even higher so that employees can afford food, themselves... And now you've got hyperinflation.

plaid_hatter 11y ago
Actually, I think you'll find a lot of people will opt for part time lower income jobs than before as they are just supplementing the guaranteed income which means that there is net total more than before.
- ap3 11y ago
  As opposed to right now when many people are only able to get low income part time jobs
dllthomas 11y ago
The salaries for jobs that nobody is going to want to do are going to have to climb, or we're going to need to automate those jobs. But if that's unsustainable and we approach hyperinflation, we quickly get to a circumstance resembling no basic income - at which point, people will start to be (economically) forced into doing those jobs again. This is assuming we don't raise the BI in response to inflation. We shouldn't do that. (Matching or slightly exceeding targeted inflation seems a good idea; raising in response to observed or expected inflation seems potentially disastrous).
dagw 11y ago
Hence, salaries for menial jobs will go through the roof Or we'll find a way to survive with a lot fewer minimum wage grocery clerks in the future.
bryanlarsen 11y ago
I predict the opposite is going to happen. Most proponents of BI also propose lowering the minimum wage. So let's suppose you're on BI receiving $12K a year. That's about enough to put a roof over your head, leaving very little for food or anything else. You see a clerk job advertised for $5 an hour. You don't have to take the job, but that $5/hr is the difference between eating rice and beans yet again or actually having a little bit of meat with your meal and being able to afford an occasional XBox game. The big difference I see is that truly unpleasant and unsafe jobs will see wages rise. Being a clerk is not a great job, but it's not a bad job unless you have an awful boss. If your boss at the grocery store starts giving you trouble, it becomes much easier to just walk away and eat rice and beans for a while until you can find another job.
- drcode 11y ago
  No- You're giving a person a choice between (1) getting to lounge around all day and play xbox or (2) earning 20% more income above BI by working hard all week doing an unpleasant and belittling job in a grocery store.
icebraining 11y ago
Bad jobs will be forced to pay more, while jobs that people actually enjoy will have an easier time hiring cheaply. Sounds great to me.
markvdb 11y ago
Look at countries like .be or .no to see how this future looks like. I wouldn't worry too much...
askvictor 11y ago
Part of the growing interest in BI is the likelihood/possibility that increasing amounts of menial jobs will be replaced by robots/computers. If the amount of work available/necessary for a well-function society is massively lower than the population, then some alternatives to the current system/expectations need to start to be considered. BI is one such alternative.
plantain 11y ago
Nonsense. Minimum wage in Australia is 18$ an hour and milk is still $2/L.
knights123 11y ago
In 40 years I'd expect most of these minimum wage jobs to have disappeared so it wouldn't really matter. Right now in some cities, Amazon and other services will deliver your food. I'd expect this to gain popularity as delivery costs come down and the cost of running an Amazon warehouse type grocery store would be significantly cheaper than running a traditional grocery store. This will drive down prices and will eventually run traditional stores out of business. So you're left with an automated warehouse moving your food around and a self driving car to deliver it. Shouldn't need that over prices clerk after all. Of course, you'll still need some workers, but if their jobs are still needed after mass automation, they're probably already worth a lot more than minimum wage.
curun1r 11y ago
I think a lot of the push for BI comes from the realization that a lot of these jobs will go away through automation. We already see grocery stores with automated self check out stations. Soon, we'll see the same kind of automation at work in Amazon warehouses stocking the shelves too. An entire supermarket could operate with only a handful of employees. Yes, they'd have to be paid a bit more to create a gap between the pay and BI, but the overall costs of running the supermarket would go down. Across all sectors of the economy, lots of low-income jobs will be eliminated. If we don't have BI to protect those soon-to-be-ex-workers, we're going to have a sizable portion of population in poverty, with no skills that let them outperform automated systems.
dawnbreez 11y ago
Nobody wants to be a grocery store clerk for minimum wage, full stop. We don't stay in the retail business because we love not being able to afford anything better than Spaghettios.

by drcode 11y ago

plaid_hatter 11y ago

Actually, I think you'll find a lot of people will opt for part time lower income jobs than before as they are just supplementing the guaranteed income which means that there is net total more than before.

ap3 11y ago
As opposed to right now when many people are only able to get low income part time jobs

dllthomas 11y ago

The salaries for jobs that nobody is going to want to do are going to have to climb, or we're going to need to automate those jobs. But if that's unsustainable and we approach hyperinflation, we quickly get to a circumstance resembling no basic income - at which point, people will start to be (economically) forced into doing those jobs again. This is assuming we don't raise the BI in response to inflation. We shouldn't do that. (Matching or slightly exceeding targeted inflation seems a good idea; raising in response to observed or expected inflation seems potentially disastrous).

dagw 11y ago

Hence, salaries for menial jobs will go through the roof Or we'll find a way to survive with a lot fewer minimum wage grocery clerks in the future.

bryanlarsen 11y ago

I predict the opposite is going to happen. Most proponents of BI also propose lowering the minimum wage. So let's suppose you're on BI receiving $12K a year. That's about enough to put a roof over your head, leaving very little for food or anything else. You see a clerk job advertised for $5 an hour. You don't have to take the job, but that $5/hr is the difference between eating rice and beans yet again or actually having a little bit of meat with your meal and being able to afford an occasional XBox game. The big difference I see is that truly unpleasant and unsafe jobs will see wages rise. Being a clerk is not a great job, but it's not a bad job unless you have an awful boss. If your boss at the grocery store starts giving you trouble, it becomes much easier to just walk away and eat rice and beans for a while until you can find another job.

drcode 11y ago
No- You're giving a person a choice between (1) getting to lounge around all day and play xbox or (2) earning 20% more income above BI by working hard all week doing an unpleasant and belittling job in a grocery store.

icebraining 11y ago

Bad jobs will be forced to pay more, while jobs that people actually enjoy will have an easier time hiring cheaply. Sounds great to me.

markvdb 11y ago

Look at countries like .be or .no to see how this future looks like. I wouldn't worry too much...

askvictor 11y ago

Part of the growing interest in BI is the likelihood/possibility that increasing amounts of menial jobs will be replaced by robots/computers. If the amount of work available/necessary for a well-function society is massively lower than the population, then some alternatives to the current system/expectations need to start to be considered. BI is one such alternative.

plantain 11y ago

Nonsense. Minimum wage in Australia is 18$ an hour and milk is still $2/L.

knights123 11y ago

In 40 years I'd expect most of these minimum wage jobs to have disappeared so it wouldn't really matter. Right now in some cities, Amazon and other services will deliver your food. I'd expect this to gain popularity as delivery costs come down and the cost of running an Amazon warehouse type grocery store would be significantly cheaper than running a traditional grocery store. This will drive down prices and will eventually run traditional stores out of business. So you're left with an automated warehouse moving your food around and a self driving car to deliver it. Shouldn't need that over prices clerk after all. Of course, you'll still need some workers, but if their jobs are still needed after mass automation, they're probably already worth a lot more than minimum wage.

curun1r 11y ago

I think a lot of the push for BI comes from the realization that a lot of these jobs will go away through automation. We already see grocery stores with automated self check out stations. Soon, we'll see the same kind of automation at work in Amazon warehouses stocking the shelves too. An entire supermarket could operate with only a handful of employees. Yes, they'd have to be paid a bit more to create a gap between the pay and BI, but the overall costs of running the supermarket would go down. Across all sectors of the economy, lots of low-income jobs will be eliminated. If we don't have BI to protect those soon-to-be-ex-workers, we're going to have a sizable portion of population in poverty, with no skills that let them outperform automated systems.

dawnbreez 11y ago

Nobody wants to be a grocery store clerk for minimum wage, full stop. We don't stay in the retail business because we love not being able to afford anything better than Spaghettios.