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These threads on HN are always extremely rough to read. I wonder what would need to happen for a more productive conversation around this topic to be possible?

These threads on HN are always extremely rough to read. I wonder what would need to happen for a more productive conversation around this topic to be possible? More participation, more moderation, better understanding, what would it take?

sarahnadav 11y ago
I think that a lot of these conversations are happening at "Women in Tech" events and it would be great if there was a way for men to be more of a part of that
- dominotw 11y ago
  > it would be great if there was a way for men to be more of a part of that I for one am too scared that I might blurt out something offensive inadvertently and get labeled a 'misogynist' which can pretty damning to one's career and something you cannot defend yourself against. All it takes is one person with an agenda to tarnish your reputation forever. I don't want someone tweeting at my employer with "are you ok with this .." thanks but No thanks. I am going stay far far away from "women in tech" business .
  - sarahnadav 11y ago
    There has to be a more and better inclusive model. Because we really need to all learn how to get past this
    - dominotw 11y ago
      >There has to be a more and better inclusive model. What are some of your thoughts around how to achieve this.
      - sarahnadav 11y ago
        I am not really happy with "Women in Tech" movement in general, I think that it should be broader and more focused on diversity. So, I would like to see events that are more focused on bringing people together.
        dominotw 11y ago
        Agreed. I know that when I am speaking to a "women in tech" I know that my every word would be put under microscope. I am a result of society like everyone else with its baises and prejudices. So instead of talking about and examining my/our own prejudices, i have to pretend to be a morally infallible saint who is incapable of thinking "wrong" thoughts.
zorpner 11y ago
Significantly more moderation. Unfortunately the consensus here in the past is that they'd prefer the majority of the "moderation" to come from the community, which only serves to amplify the already echo-chamber-like qualities of the discourse here. But make no mistake -- that those who moderate and administrate choose not to act does not absolve them of responsibility for the bigoted, status-quo-loving noise that dominates here and more than justifies the reputation HN has across the web.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  Moderation isn't the problem. Moderation won't make contentious issues non-contentious. The problem is us. HN readers need to step up and provide a counterbalance to idiocy.
  - sarahnadav 11y ago
    I think HN readers should do some soul searching, because this isn't contentious out there in the real world. The post has been picked up on a few different news sites, and nobody (even in the comments) is nearly as threatened by what I have to say as the folks who are on this thread.
    - vinceguidry 11y ago
      I think you are right. Sexism stories always bring out the trolls here, and they tend to bring out ugliness in otherwise normal people. I'll do some soul searching in this space since it's clear that few others will. It took a long time for me to get to the root of sexism in myself and others. Gender is very core to identity and it's perceived as an attack on one's masculinity to be accused of sexism. To rise past this deep urge is very difficult. To see females as people instead of objects is easy to do intellectually, very hard to internalize to the point to where you can look at a female programmer and actually see a programmer instead of a woman. I think there is a certain level of ingrained social awkwardness in the tech community that exacerbates this. In other milieus, you'd never see things like codes of conduct becoming actual bones of contention. Everywhere else, guys might have their beliefs about the necessity of codes of conduct or otherwise, but know better than to actually express them. In tech, every idiot with an opinion thinks it's important enough to mouth off about.
raziel2p 11y ago
Maybe a less hyperbolic, over the top, subtly smug article for the discussion to revolve around? If you, as a writer, want someone to focus on a particular topic, you should generally avoid distracting your readers with ridiculous statements such as "entrepeneurs are an entirely different breed of human beings".
- icebraining 11y ago
  Maybe a less hyperbolic, over the top, subtly smug article for the discussion to revolve around? We've had plenty of those, they still usually devolve into a shitshow.
ryanlol 11y ago
Why are these threads extremely rough to read? Is it perhaps because the blog reads like as if it was written by a some freshman in sociology class?
- sarahnadav 11y ago
  I can't answer why the thread is hard to read, but as for the blog. It is written by me, a professional Journalist and University Lecturer in Organizational Development and Management. It's called "colloquial" use of language so that even idiots can understand it. Apparently, even dumbing it down doesn't make it idiot proof.
DatBear 11y ago
Maybe, you know, actual conversation? This woman is saying that whenever a VC says something she doesn't like, she gets up and leaves, and says "Sorry, I don't think this will be a 'good fit'." Then she tells the VCs it's their fault for saying something she didn't like - in a blog post? What a ridiculous situation to even be considering talking about, yet here we are.
- sarahnadav 11y ago
  FYI- I tried actual conversation. But shocker men don't want to hear that they are sexist. I was then called "overemotional" and "abrasive" because I pushed back. Any entrepreneur has to decide if an investor is a good fit, I have decided that misogynists are not a good fit.

sarahnadav 11y ago

I think that a lot of these conversations are happening at "Women in Tech" events and it would be great if there was a way for men to be more of a part of that

dominotw 11y ago
> it would be great if there was a way for men to be more of a part of that I for one am too scared that I might blurt out something offensive inadvertently and get labeled a 'misogynist' which can pretty damning to one's career and something you cannot defend yourself against. All it takes is one person with an agenda to tarnish your reputation forever. I don't want someone tweeting at my employer with "are you ok with this .." thanks but No thanks. I am going stay far far away from "women in tech" business .
- sarahnadav 11y ago
  There has to be a more and better inclusive model. Because we really need to all learn how to get past this
  - dominotw 11y ago
    >There has to be a more and better inclusive model. What are some of your thoughts around how to achieve this.
    - sarahnadav 11y ago
      I am not really happy with "Women in Tech" movement in general, I think that it should be broader and more focused on diversity. So, I would like to see events that are more focused on bringing people together.
      - dominotw 11y ago
        Agreed. I know that when I am speaking to a "women in tech" I know that my every word would be put under microscope. I am a result of society like everyone else with its baises and prejudices. So instead of talking about and examining my/our own prejudices, i have to pretend to be a morally infallible saint who is incapable of thinking "wrong" thoughts.

zorpner 11y ago

Significantly more moderation. Unfortunately the consensus here in the past is that they'd prefer the majority of the "moderation" to come from the community, which only serves to amplify the already echo-chamber-like qualities of the discourse here. But make no mistake -- that those who moderate and administrate choose not to act does not absolve them of responsibility for the bigoted, status-quo-loving noise that dominates here and more than justifies the reputation HN has across the web.

vinceguidry 11y ago
Moderation isn't the problem. Moderation won't make contentious issues non-contentious. The problem is us. HN readers need to step up and provide a counterbalance to idiocy.
- sarahnadav 11y ago
  I think HN readers should do some soul searching, because this isn't contentious out there in the real world. The post has been picked up on a few different news sites, and nobody (even in the comments) is nearly as threatened by what I have to say as the folks who are on this thread.
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    I think you are right. Sexism stories always bring out the trolls here, and they tend to bring out ugliness in otherwise normal people. I'll do some soul searching in this space since it's clear that few others will. It took a long time for me to get to the root of sexism in myself and others. Gender is very core to identity and it's perceived as an attack on one's masculinity to be accused of sexism. To rise past this deep urge is very difficult. To see females as people instead of objects is easy to do intellectually, very hard to internalize to the point to where you can look at a female programmer and actually see a programmer instead of a woman. I think there is a certain level of ingrained social awkwardness in the tech community that exacerbates this. In other milieus, you'd never see things like codes of conduct becoming actual bones of contention. Everywhere else, guys might have their beliefs about the necessity of codes of conduct or otherwise, but know better than to actually express them. In tech, every idiot with an opinion thinks it's important enough to mouth off about.

raziel2p 11y ago

Maybe a less hyperbolic, over the top, subtly smug article for the discussion to revolve around? If you, as a writer, want someone to focus on a particular topic, you should generally avoid distracting your readers with ridiculous statements such as "entrepeneurs are an entirely different breed of human beings".

icebraining 11y ago
Maybe a less hyperbolic, over the top, subtly smug article for the discussion to revolve around? We've had plenty of those, they still usually devolve into a shitshow.

ryanlol 11y ago

Why are these threads extremely rough to read? Is it perhaps because the blog reads like as if it was written by a some freshman in sociology class?

sarahnadav 11y ago
I can't answer why the thread is hard to read, but as for the blog. It is written by me, a professional Journalist and University Lecturer in Organizational Development and Management. It's called "colloquial" use of language so that even idiots can understand it. Apparently, even dumbing it down doesn't make it idiot proof.

DatBear 11y ago

Maybe, you know, actual conversation? This woman is saying that whenever a VC says something she doesn't like, she gets up and leaves, and says "Sorry, I don't think this will be a 'good fit'." Then she tells the VCs it's their fault for saying something she didn't like - in a blog post? What a ridiculous situation to even be considering talking about, yet here we are.

sarahnadav 11y ago
FYI- I tried actual conversation. But shocker men don't want to hear that they are sexist. I was then called "overemotional" and "abrasive" because I pushed back. Any entrepreneur has to decide if an investor is a good fit, I have decided that misogynists are not a good fit.