5 ms·

Not to nitpick but I think the title of engineer is being abused quite a bit by software folks. I'm a software developer and would never consider myself an engi

by yardie 17y ago

Not to nitpick but I think the title of engineer is being abused quite a bit by software folks. I'm a software developer and would never consider myself an engineer. We build things, great. But one has to be professionally licensed by an accreditation board. While the other just has to have a few successful projects under their belt. One of my friends just got his PE license. 7 frikkin' years after we both graduated. Could you imagine if it took 7 years before you were legally allowed to run your own company? (I believe 7 years is the average amount of time to get a PE). Anyone calling themselves an engineer without that little piece of sheepskin might as well call themself an MD without the years of med school. But this is America (assuming the majority of HN subscribers) so call yourself whatever you would like.

bmalicoat 17y ago
Couldn't agree more. I think the problem stems from the fact that most engineers don't have anything distinguishing in their title (ie doctors with MD or lawyers with JD, etc) to show that they have gone through a long and technical process. Most people falsely assume if you graduate with an engineering degree you are an engineer.
- flogic 17y ago
  Thats because for large chunks of engineering, it doesn't matter. Engineers work on tons of things many of which aren't life critical.
  - yardie 17y ago
    The same could be said for lawyers and doctors. For every ER doctor, there are 20 family doctors (GP), medical sales, researchers. In the past year I've met many people who hold JDs but aren't practicing lawyers (some do it because of boredom, challenge, or an intersecting business interest). I've rarely met a lawyer that uses esquire, unless they are trying to impress a date.
    - flogic 17y ago
      What I'm trying to say is engineer is a generic term, and the PE's can go get their own damned word.
tjr 17y ago
What software engineering licensure do you propose one obtain? And why would folks bother to obtain it, if it is almost entirely, if not entirely, not required to do "software engineering" work?
- btilly 17y ago
  The fact that there is no license in widespread use does not mean that there is no argument for creating one. See http://www.stevemcconnell.com/psd.htm http://www.stevemcconnell.com/psd.htm for part of Steve McConnell's argument that we need to create, respect, and for certain kinds of projects require true software engineers sign off on the plans.
  - tjr 17y ago
    I personally agree that there should be one, but right now, there really isn't much of anything that requires it. A few organizations have dabbled with licensing software developers, but not much has come of it. I work on software for avionics systems. We have reams of requirements based upon industry standards, plethoras of verification procedures, and seemingly endless rounds of peer reviews, followed by formal flight testing. It can take hours of paperwork to change one line of code, to ensure quality and meet certification guidelines. In my opinion, this sort of work is about as "engineering" as software development can get. I suspect work like this would benefit from having developers who are seriously licensed to do "engineering" work... the whole mindset is a lot different from doing a web startup, and I reckon most software people recently out of college are more in tune with the startup way of thinking than the sort of work that goes on with avionics. Of course, not everyone wants to work with avionics. Maybe a license shouldn't be needed for doing web startups.
lutorm 17y ago
When it comes to engineers being licensed, that is America. No such thing exists in Sweden, at least. "Civilingenjör" is an university degree in applied science, roughly equivalent to an MS.
- yardie 17y ago
  I know it's not a valid source but according to her http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer the title PE (and variations, all require accreditation) includes: Japan, Canada, South Korea, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, EU (Ing. Eur). Sweden requires 7 years experience and peer review in lieu of examination. But the main argument still holds. Some guy with 2 years of experience can't bestow himself an engineer.
geebee 17y ago
I'd prefer to see software developers, programmers, etc drop the claim on the title "engineer", though for different reasons than the ones you listed. I don't think the public associates "engineer" with PEs the way it associates JD with lawyers or MD with physicians/surgeons. I think the public thinks of an "engineer" as someone who does something confusing and technical - for instance, people don't really expect a "sound engineer" to have PE. I also don't think that PE's have a strong historical claim to exclusive use of the word engineer, which most people initially think of as the person who drives the train. Lastly, so many branches of engineering have little to no use for licensing, but does this mean they shouldn't be considered engineering anymore? Do they need to invent new terms for their practitioners? That said, I never describe myself as an engineer (though I do have a MS in industrial engineering), because I don't want the PE people to start thinking they have a claim on software. Like a lot of people on this board (where an economic liberalism seems to prevail), I'm very suspicious of the professional associations, which are immensely cartel-like in their behavior. I also don't consider software development to be necessarily "easier" than engineering. I just think it's very different, and that we should assert and insist on our own identity, and rigorously resist attempts to form cartels and restrict the right to practice, especially from PE folks, who in my opinion have no business regulating software (if they want to regulate software related to civil engineering, they should do that as civil engineers, not by making up some software engineer title and using scope creep to form a cartel, which is typical of professional associations).
flogic 17y ago
Right... The world is full of engineers without certifications. Did the guy who designed the circuitry of my TV have a PE? How about the guy designing the intake manifold of my car? What did your friend do in those seven years before he got his PE? Probably engineering. Software developers are engineers. Whether we do it well or poorly is besides the point. As far as I know the cert only affects legal responsibility when signing of on a design. So uner that PE there are probably a number of other engineers without PE's doing the grunt work.
- yardie 17y ago
  The guy that designed the circuit for your TV, or his boss, would have to be accredited. The reason the PE title exists at all is so some idiot with a basic understanding of electricity doesn't design a death trap. The PE isn't some exam you pay $50 and take. You take it when you're ready. You can be an engineer without the PE, but you can't certify your own work unless you have a PE. Everything you mentioned has either been design, approved, or inspected by someone with the title.
  - flogic 17y ago
    Right but we still call those non-PE'd engineers engineers. And in many cases the "isn't a hazard" aspect is only a tiny part of the design.
  - yardie 17y ago
    What they do is engineering so they are called engineers. Software is very different from what an engineer requires. As Toyota is learning at the moment. Mistakes can be extremely costly. Not in firetrap way, but in the end product. You design a product that will have a permanent physical form. You only get one shot to get it right. It's how AutoCAD and Solidworks can justify their existence. Engineering is all about rules, you are constrained by them. Software is about everything except rules. Software development is one of the few professions that has a creative and methodical aspect. There is very little preventing me from writing the next great app. I just need the creativity to get me there and the methodology to keep me on track.

by yardie 17y ago

bmalicoat 17y ago

Couldn't agree more. I think the problem stems from the fact that most engineers don't have anything distinguishing in their title (ie doctors with MD or lawyers with JD, etc) to show that they have gone through a long and technical process. Most people falsely assume if you graduate with an engineering degree you are an engineer.

flogic 17y ago
Thats because for large chunks of engineering, it doesn't matter. Engineers work on tons of things many of which aren't life critical.
- yardie 17y ago
  The same could be said for lawyers and doctors. For every ER doctor, there are 20 family doctors (GP), medical sales, researchers. In the past year I've met many people who hold JDs but aren't practicing lawyers (some do it because of boredom, challenge, or an intersecting business interest). I've rarely met a lawyer that uses esquire, unless they are trying to impress a date.
  - flogic 17y ago
    What I'm trying to say is engineer is a generic term, and the PE's can go get their own damned word.

tjr 17y ago

What software engineering licensure do you propose one obtain? And why would folks bother to obtain it, if it is almost entirely, if not entirely, not required to do "software engineering" work?

btilly 17y ago
The fact that there is no license in widespread use does not mean that there is no argument for creating one. See http://www.stevemcconnell.com/psd.htm http://www.stevemcconnell.com/psd.htm for part of Steve McConnell's argument that we need to create, respect, and for certain kinds of projects require true software engineers sign off on the plans.
- tjr 17y ago
  I personally agree that there should be one, but right now, there really isn't much of anything that requires it. A few organizations have dabbled with licensing software developers, but not much has come of it. I work on software for avionics systems. We have reams of requirements based upon industry standards, plethoras of verification procedures, and seemingly endless rounds of peer reviews, followed by formal flight testing. It can take hours of paperwork to change one line of code, to ensure quality and meet certification guidelines. In my opinion, this sort of work is about as "engineering" as software development can get. I suspect work like this would benefit from having developers who are seriously licensed to do "engineering" work... the whole mindset is a lot different from doing a web startup, and I reckon most software people recently out of college are more in tune with the startup way of thinking than the sort of work that goes on with avionics. Of course, not everyone wants to work with avionics. Maybe a license shouldn't be needed for doing web startups.

lutorm 17y ago

When it comes to engineers being licensed, that is America. No such thing exists in Sweden, at least. "Civilingenjör" is an university degree in applied science, roughly equivalent to an MS.

yardie 17y ago
I know it's not a valid source but according to her http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer the title PE (and variations, all require accreditation) includes: Japan, Canada, South Korea, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, EU (Ing. Eur). Sweden requires 7 years experience and peer review in lieu of examination. But the main argument still holds. Some guy with 2 years of experience can't bestow himself an engineer.

geebee 17y ago

I'd prefer to see software developers, programmers, etc drop the claim on the title "engineer", though for different reasons than the ones you listed. I don't think the public associates "engineer" with PEs the way it associates JD with lawyers or MD with physicians/surgeons. I think the public thinks of an "engineer" as someone who does something confusing and technical - for instance, people don't really expect a "sound engineer" to have PE. I also don't think that PE's have a strong historical claim to exclusive use of the word engineer, which most people initially think of as the person who drives the train. Lastly, so many branches of engineering have little to no use for licensing, but does this mean they shouldn't be considered engineering anymore? Do they need to invent new terms for their practitioners? That said, I never describe myself as an engineer (though I do have a MS in industrial engineering), because I don't want the PE people to start thinking they have a claim on software. Like a lot of people on this board (where an economic liberalism seems to prevail), I'm very suspicious of the professional associations, which are immensely cartel-like in their behavior. I also don't consider software development to be necessarily "easier" than engineering. I just think it's very different, and that we should assert and insist on our own identity, and rigorously resist attempts to form cartels and restrict the right to practice, especially from PE folks, who in my opinion have no business regulating software (if they want to regulate software related to civil engineering, they should do that as civil engineers, not by making up some software engineer title and using scope creep to form a cartel, which is typical of professional associations).

flogic 17y ago

Right... The world is full of engineers without certifications. Did the guy who designed the circuitry of my TV have a PE? How about the guy designing the intake manifold of my car? What did your friend do in those seven years before he got his PE? Probably engineering. Software developers are engineers. Whether we do it well or poorly is besides the point. As far as I know the cert only affects legal responsibility when signing of on a design. So uner that PE there are probably a number of other engineers without PE's doing the grunt work.

yardie 17y ago
The guy that designed the circuit for your TV, or his boss, would have to be accredited. The reason the PE title exists at all is so some idiot with a basic understanding of electricity doesn't design a death trap. The PE isn't some exam you pay $50 and take. You take it when you're ready. You can be an engineer without the PE, but you can't certify your own work unless you have a PE. Everything you mentioned has either been design, approved, or inspected by someone with the title.
- flogic 17y ago
  Right but we still call those non-PE'd engineers engineers. And in many cases the "isn't a hazard" aspect is only a tiny part of the design.
- yardie 17y ago
  What they do is engineering so they are called engineers. Software is very different from what an engineer requires. As Toyota is learning at the moment. Mistakes can be extremely costly. Not in firetrap way, but in the end product. You design a product that will have a permanent physical form. You only get one shot to get it right. It's how AutoCAD and Solidworks can justify their existence. Engineering is all about rules, you are constrained by them. Software is about everything except rules. Software development is one of the few professions that has a creative and methodical aspect. There is very little preventing me from writing the next great app. I just need the creativity to get me there and the methodology to keep me on track.