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> I've heard this argument many times and it all boils down to "Scala is not Haskell", which is in fact a true statement. Scala is not Haskell and never meant t

> I've heard this argument many times and it all boils down to "Scala is not Haskell", which is in fact a true statement. Scala is not Haskell and never meant to be a Haskell replacement, nor a pure FP non-strict language. Yes, but my point is that Scala's unholy combination of OOP/FP has been marketed as some sort of panacea... which it definitely isn't. I think, it's actually worse in both aspects: Erlang (modulo static type checking) beats it in the OOP realm, and Haskell (and Idris, etc.) beat it in the functional. Try to use scalaz for anything serious, and I think you'll find out what I mean. Don't get me wrong, scalaz (and shapeles, etc.) are marvels of engineering, but they aren't sufficient in practice. Nor are they for any reasonable definition of the term 'usable'. Haskell/GHC is -- and in fact it's simple and easy. Btw, now we can also enjoy 'cats'! Let's retread the whole "mtl" and "transformers" disaster once again in Scala! Fun! (I was around for the Haskell mtl/transformers/fundeps thing and... it didn't work. Monad &c. need to be part of standard library. For sanity.) I just think programming languages is a realm where compromise doesn't work. Maybe I'm wrong, but... > Anyway, Scala is probably one of very few languages that combines OOP and FP Firstly, "Combine A+B does not necessarily improve anything"[1], but... Secondly, see, this is the problem... having a few things signify "this cannot be mutated" does not an FP language make. It's far more complicated than that -- it's about culture. The Scheme authors recognized this and named anything that was "dangerous" (side-effecting) with a bang at the end so that it would be offsensive and stand out to any code reviewer. This is what FP is all about... not just paying lip service (which I think Scala is doing currently) to immutability. EDIT: Look, I realize that I'm being an asshole with the beneift of hindsight, but still... I'm talking about what we should aspire to. Not just accept. [1] I think the supreme example of this is in the O'Caml object system. It's basically better than any single-dispatch system out there, but nobody[2] actually _uses_ it. Why? Because it's just simpler to do in function style. [2] Yeah, yeah, qualifiers, formal studies, etc.

ninjakeyboard 11y ago
There are conventions in scala to talk to the culture as well. Ya I agree that it can be hard to see effects occasionally. I just worked out a bug where some element was cached despite the fact that the function I wrote appeared to be pure. But still, in scala's culture braces at the end of a function are, by convention, representative of an effect. Eg doSomething is pure and doSomething() has an effect. It's shades of grey. Scala ultimately may not be Haskell, but it's useful and a much better alternative to using Java. To lean on the JVM and be able to sell Scala is better than using Java just because it's what's already there. To transition away from java toward something better is a win. It's definitely a win. I'd love to work on haskell or introduce haskell in places that i work but no way in hell would I ever succeed. Only at a startup with the smartest of smart people. You can take interested ruby developers and chop them into decent scala devs and that's good for the pitch. How the hell do you take a team of mediocre devs and get them to write your next production system in haskell?
- lomnakkus 11y ago
  > Ya I agree that it can be hard to see effects occasionally. Nono. The point is that they should be codified and forbidden in places they shouldn't be used. I cannot describe how much this matters to anyone who hasn't "absorbed" the Haskell mindset. (That's not your fault, it's mine. "More research/explanation needed" on my part.) > ... and a much better alternative to using Java. Yes, but it only if you use it as a "better Java". It fails _hugely_ if you try to do anything "advanced"... as in actual FP like lenses and things. > I'd love to work on haskell or introduce haskell in places that i work but no way in hell would I ever succeed. This is also a cultural problem. Migrate towards microservices and... there you go! Nobody actually cares what it's implemented in. (I think this is a somewhat sneaky/underhanded way to introduce it, but it... works.) EDIT: If you want to see first-hand what I'm talking about try "monocle" or "shapeless", which -- while both being fantastically named and engineered -- fail on actual usage.

ninjakeyboard 11y ago

There are conventions in scala to talk to the culture as well. Ya I agree that it can be hard to see effects occasionally. I just worked out a bug where some element was cached despite the fact that the function I wrote appeared to be pure. But still, in scala's culture braces at the end of a function are, by convention, representative of an effect. Eg doSomething is pure and doSomething() has an effect. It's shades of grey. Scala ultimately may not be Haskell, but it's useful and a much better alternative to using Java. To lean on the JVM and be able to sell Scala is better than using Java just because it's what's already there. To transition away from java toward something better is a win. It's definitely a win. I'd love to work on haskell or introduce haskell in places that i work but no way in hell would I ever succeed. Only at a startup with the smartest of smart people. You can take interested ruby developers and chop them into decent scala devs and that's good for the pitch. How the hell do you take a team of mediocre devs and get them to write your next production system in haskell?

lomnakkus 11y ago
> Ya I agree that it can be hard to see effects occasionally. Nono. The point is that they should be codified and forbidden in places they shouldn't be used. I cannot describe how much this matters to anyone who hasn't "absorbed" the Haskell mindset. (That's not your fault, it's mine. "More research/explanation needed" on my part.) > ... and a much better alternative to using Java. Yes, but it only if you use it as a "better Java". It fails _hugely_ if you try to do anything "advanced"... as in actual FP like lenses and things. > I'd love to work on haskell or introduce haskell in places that i work but no way in hell would I ever succeed. This is also a cultural problem. Migrate towards microservices and... there you go! Nobody actually cares what it's implemented in. (I think this is a somewhat sneaky/underhanded way to introduce it, but it... works.) EDIT: If you want to see first-hand what I'm talking about try "monocle" or "shapeless", which -- while both being fantastically named and engineered -- fail on actual usage.