5 ms·

> Everything in the Java ecosystem is hard. It really isn't. I request that you qualify your comments to the subset of the "Java ecosystem" that you actually

by peeters 11y ago

> Everything in the Java ecosystem is hard. It really isn't. I request that you qualify your comments to the subset of the "Java ecosystem" that you actually have experience with. Because "thickets of XML tags" really has nothing to do with Java, though it might have to do with certain massive frameworks built on top of Java.

geofft 11y ago
I'm curious, what parts of the Java ecosystem (other than simple stuff, or old stuff, or non-Java languages on the JVM) don't involve thickets of XML tags? I have so little Java experience that it's fallen off my résumé, so I'm sure I'm uninformed and would like to be more informed. But everything I've seen of actual, production Java development today heavily uses XML somehow, from Ant or Maven build files, to web.xml, to Spring dependency injection, to Android, to even Java Web Start. Is there any serious part of the Java (Java, not Scala or Clojure) ecosystem that doesn't involve XML at every corner?
- lbarrow 11y ago
  I've been using Dropwizard extensively at work for the last 8 months without touching XML.
  - RhodesianHunter 11y ago
    I'm really enjoying Dropwizard. It has helped pull me back in to the Java ecosystem.
  - einrealist 11y ago
    I do Java projects for more than 15 years. I know the times when XML-based configuration was the standard. Now, I am working on the MVP of my startup, with Dropwizard. The XML days feel like stories from a fairy tale. But I have to say that XML is often blamed by people who think that complexity would magically vanish. Complexity does not vanish. It can only be shifted around. And it often requires lots of iterations to find an approach that is good enough for everyone. Back in the days, if tooling was right, I did not care about the amount of XML.
- rnovak 11y ago
  Well, for starters, Spring basically has eliminated XML configuration with Spring-Boot. Add a couple annotations and you're done (as in, fully done, no web.xml's, no application-contexts). (Granted, I don't really like this, from an engineering point of view, but whatever). Also, I really wouldn't complain about Maven, as it is hands down the best dependency manager available from any language, bar maybe gem/rails (node isn't even close, since you need a c++ compiler to actually get quite a few packages). There are also enough plugins for every IDE out there to handle Maven POM's. But if that wasn't enough, there's now Gradle. You can literally have an entire Spring/Java/Grade project that doesn't use ANY XML, but purely Annotations/DSLs. Secondly, there's a major selection bias at play. In your own words "everything I've seen of...", sorry but your point was lost right there. Yes. I've seen (and written) plenty of actual production Java code that doesn't use any XML configuration at all. There are a lot of issues with Java, but XML isn't INHERENT to it.
  - dmichulke 11y ago
    Annotations are IMHO just another and admittedly shorter representation of the same problem. You still have to learn them by heart for each lib, you don't know when they are executed and you cannot reason about them (as you could with source code). Pretty much the same problems as XML if you ask me.
    - rnovak 11y ago
      If by the same problem you mean that you have to understand a library in order to use it properly, I guess so, but I don't see how that's unique to Java. I don't see any difference between having to understand annotations and having to understand libstdc++ for example, or having to learn about any particular ruby gem or node package. Every language has to deal with configuration files. Complaining because a bunch of Java developers used XML in their projects seems trite. I think XML actually has a lot of strengths (having well-defined-types and structure for one). If the complaint is that it's worse than JSON, well...I've seen way worse than XML (ASN.1 for instance), so idk...
      - 11y ago
- Gibbon1 11y ago
  Ever look at an eclipse project file? Barf
  - froh42 11y ago
    I'm a java developer. Why should I look at a eclipse project file? (Ok, as I'm using Idea - why look at an Idea project file?) Those are the internal storage systems of the IDE and I don't care what they use. And I won't go around patching the IDE's config files manually ever.
    - Gibbon1 11y ago
      Why because the project you need to swipe some stuff from has no build system other than the wretched eclipse project file. Put it this why, you look at the project file, it's a tell how horrid everything is with the Java ecosystem that someone thinks that is a good idea.
- koevet 11y ago
  As a Java developer doing mostly enterprisey stuff, I haven't used XML in years. Yes, web.xml is maybe the only piece of XML I have to deal with in certain cases.
- ww520 11y ago
  Lots of Java packages don't use XML. Just on the web app servers: Play, Vertx, Spring MVC, Dropwizard, and others don't use XML. The new crop of micro framework stirred clear of XML: Spark Framework, Pippo, Rapidoid, Blade, and Jodd.
- stevehiehn 11y ago
  Spring Boot is very serious.
- speeder 11y ago
  I hate Java. There is ONE exception, when I decided to mod the game Starsector, setting up the project, and compiling and running while using IntelliJ is far easier than any other Java project I ever had, also no XML anywhere, it so wonderful it ALMOST made me like Java.

by peeters 11y ago

geofft 11y ago

I'm curious, what parts of the Java ecosystem (other than simple stuff, or old stuff, or non-Java languages on the JVM) don't involve thickets of XML tags? I have so little Java experience that it's fallen off my résumé, so I'm sure I'm uninformed and would like to be more informed. But everything I've seen of actual, production Java development today heavily uses XML somehow, from Ant or Maven build files, to web.xml, to Spring dependency injection, to Android, to even Java Web Start. Is there any serious part of the Java (Java, not Scala or Clojure) ecosystem that doesn't involve XML at every corner?

lbarrow 11y ago
I've been using Dropwizard extensively at work for the last 8 months without touching XML.
- RhodesianHunter 11y ago
  I'm really enjoying Dropwizard. It has helped pull me back in to the Java ecosystem.
- einrealist 11y ago
  I do Java projects for more than 15 years. I know the times when XML-based configuration was the standard. Now, I am working on the MVP of my startup, with Dropwizard. The XML days feel like stories from a fairy tale. But I have to say that XML is often blamed by people who think that complexity would magically vanish. Complexity does not vanish. It can only be shifted around. And it often requires lots of iterations to find an approach that is good enough for everyone. Back in the days, if tooling was right, I did not care about the amount of XML.
rnovak 11y ago
Well, for starters, Spring basically has eliminated XML configuration with Spring-Boot. Add a couple annotations and you're done (as in, fully done, no web.xml's, no application-contexts). (Granted, I don't really like this, from an engineering point of view, but whatever). Also, I really wouldn't complain about Maven, as it is hands down the best dependency manager available from any language, bar maybe gem/rails (node isn't even close, since you need a c++ compiler to actually get quite a few packages). There are also enough plugins for every IDE out there to handle Maven POM's. But if that wasn't enough, there's now Gradle. You can literally have an entire Spring/Java/Grade project that doesn't use ANY XML, but purely Annotations/DSLs. Secondly, there's a major selection bias at play. In your own words "everything I've seen of...", sorry but your point was lost right there. Yes. I've seen (and written) plenty of actual production Java code that doesn't use any XML configuration at all. There are a lot of issues with Java, but XML isn't INHERENT to it.
- dmichulke 11y ago
  Annotations are IMHO just another and admittedly shorter representation of the same problem. You still have to learn them by heart for each lib, you don't know when they are executed and you cannot reason about them (as you could with source code). Pretty much the same problems as XML if you ask me.
  - rnovak 11y ago
    If by the same problem you mean that you have to understand a library in order to use it properly, I guess so, but I don't see how that's unique to Java. I don't see any difference between having to understand annotations and having to understand libstdc++ for example, or having to learn about any particular ruby gem or node package. Every language has to deal with configuration files. Complaining because a bunch of Java developers used XML in their projects seems trite. I think XML actually has a lot of strengths (having well-defined-types and structure for one). If the complaint is that it's worse than JSON, well...I've seen way worse than XML (ASN.1 for instance), so idk...
    - 11y ago
Gibbon1 11y ago
Ever look at an eclipse project file? Barf
- froh42 11y ago
  I'm a java developer. Why should I look at a eclipse project file? (Ok, as I'm using Idea - why look at an Idea project file?) Those are the internal storage systems of the IDE and I don't care what they use. And I won't go around patching the IDE's config files manually ever.
  - Gibbon1 11y ago
    Why because the project you need to swipe some stuff from has no build system other than the wretched eclipse project file. Put it this why, you look at the project file, it's a tell how horrid everything is with the Java ecosystem that someone thinks that is a good idea.
koevet 11y ago
As a Java developer doing mostly enterprisey stuff, I haven't used XML in years. Yes, web.xml is maybe the only piece of XML I have to deal with in certain cases.
ww520 11y ago
Lots of Java packages don't use XML. Just on the web app servers: Play, Vertx, Spring MVC, Dropwizard, and others don't use XML. The new crop of micro framework stirred clear of XML: Spark Framework, Pippo, Rapidoid, Blade, and Jodd.
stevehiehn 11y ago
Spring Boot is very serious.
speeder 11y ago
I hate Java. There is ONE exception, when I decided to mod the game Starsector, setting up the project, and compiling and running while using IntelliJ is far easier than any other Java project I ever had, also no XML anywhere, it so wonderful it ALMOST made me like Java.