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> My experience indicates exactly the opposite. As a rule of thumb, at least in Europe, friendly chill people are thrilled that you're trying to speak their lan

> My experience indicates exactly the opposite. As a rule of thumb, at least in Europe, friendly chill people are thrilled that you're trying to speak their language, and grumpy impatient people interrupt your plodding attempts and insist on talking to you in English. We can feel free to disagree I suppose. But I haven't experienced any of this in the 20 or so countries I've been in. In almost everyplace I've been, opening in my obviously American accented equivalent of the local "hello" then proceeding in English (even if they mistakenly think I can speak local), seems to work very well. Following up with the local "please", "thank you" and "good bye" also works pretty well. Not being a douche, eating all the local food put in front of me, and being polite and deferential to my local hosts -- even if they are wait staff -- works wonders. And I've been to some pretty hostile places. In some cases, stuffing my self-entitled American give-it-to-me-now-and-speak-English-while-doing-it attitude down my own throat opened tons of doors even across vast cultural and linguistic differences.

dkarl 17y ago
In almost everyplace I've been, opening in my obviously American accented equivalent of the local "hello" then proceeding in English (even if they mistakenly think I can speak local), seems to work very well. Which is no different from what I suggested, except that you mentioned saying "hello" in the local language and I mentioned asking if they speak English instead of presuming. Both good ideas, I think, unless you're in a situation where presuming is justified. And I've been to some pretty hostile places. In some cases, stuffing my self-entitled American give-it-to-me-now-and-speak-English-while-doing-it attitude down my own throat opened tons of doors even across vast cultural and linguistic differences. Well, that's a lot of external baggage you've imposed on the discussion. Since we were taking the time to discuss what polite behavior actually is in various situations, it would seem that we're already taking your "not being a douche" point for granted. And really, thinking in terms of your own attitude is not really the right way to do it, whether your attitude is "I'm an American and entitled to speak English anywhere" or "I'm quite proud of not being a self-entitled douche, and pardon me while I demonstrate that fact using this charming gentleman from the audience, I mean, the native culture." Aren't you supposed to think about what behavior will make the other person feel comfortable and respected, instead of thinking about what behavior would best reflect an admirable attitude on your part? And you know, there are a couple of reasons why deference and humility are a pretty good universal pass to foreign cultures. It's not because they reflect a virtuous attitude, and it's not because they're polite behavior in all circumstances. First, the people you might offend or discomfort by that kind of behavior are generally not in a position to make any trouble for you. Second, lack of regard for social rank is part of the popular image of Americans (at least the positive popular image of Americans,) so people tend to understand inappropriately equal behavior as a reflection of Americanness instead of intentional rudeness. It turns out understanding and tolerance go both ways.
- elblanco 17y ago
  > And really, thinking in terms of your own attitude is not really the right way to do it, whether your attitude is "I'm an American and entitled to speak English anywhere" or "I'm quite proud of not being a self-entitled douche, and pardon me while I demonstrate that fact using this charming gentleman from the audience, I mean, the native culture." Aren't you supposed to think about what behavior will make the other person feel comfortable and respected, instead of thinking about what behavior would best reflect an admirable attitude on your part? I'm not sure I understand how being polite, and being self-aware of your own actions are mutually exclusive? > Second, lack of regard for social rank is part of the popular image of Americans (at least the positive popular image of Americans,) so people tend to understand inappropriately equal behavior as a reflection of Americanness instead of intentional rudeness. It turns out understanding and tolerance go both ways. I can agree with this whole heartedly. Even in places with dense collections of small ceremonies acting as the marker of social politeness (say Japan for sake of argument), making an effort does not necessarily equal being polite from their perspective, since you may not be acting in a way congruent with the local concepts of politeness (where to put your chopsticks, how low to bow, etc.) But I've found most people understand that, though you are an outsider, you're at least making an effort, which is generally appreciated. Usually, if you spend enough time there, you'll get helpful pointers from people who want to help you be polite. They wouldn't bother with this if they didn't see that you were at least attempting -- i.e. politeness is important to you, so it's worth their time and effort to tutor you.

dkarl 17y ago

In almost everyplace I've been, opening in my obviously American accented equivalent of the local "hello" then proceeding in English (even if they mistakenly think I can speak local), seems to work very well. Which is no different from what I suggested, except that you mentioned saying "hello" in the local language and I mentioned asking if they speak English instead of presuming. Both good ideas, I think, unless you're in a situation where presuming is justified. And I've been to some pretty hostile places. In some cases, stuffing my self-entitled American give-it-to-me-now-and-speak-English-while-doing-it attitude down my own throat opened tons of doors even across vast cultural and linguistic differences. Well, that's a lot of external baggage you've imposed on the discussion. Since we were taking the time to discuss what polite behavior actually is in various situations, it would seem that we're already taking your "not being a douche" point for granted. And really, thinking in terms of your own attitude is not really the right way to do it, whether your attitude is "I'm an American and entitled to speak English anywhere" or "I'm quite proud of not being a self-entitled douche, and pardon me while I demonstrate that fact using this charming gentleman from the audience, I mean, the native culture." Aren't you supposed to think about what behavior will make the other person feel comfortable and respected, instead of thinking about what behavior would best reflect an admirable attitude on your part? And you know, there are a couple of reasons why deference and humility are a pretty good universal pass to foreign cultures. It's not because they reflect a virtuous attitude, and it's not because they're polite behavior in all circumstances. First, the people you might offend or discomfort by that kind of behavior are generally not in a position to make any trouble for you. Second, lack of regard for social rank is part of the popular image of Americans (at least the positive popular image of Americans,) so people tend to understand inappropriately equal behavior as a reflection of Americanness instead of intentional rudeness. It turns out understanding and tolerance go both ways.

elblanco 17y ago
> And really, thinking in terms of your own attitude is not really the right way to do it, whether your attitude is "I'm an American and entitled to speak English anywhere" or "I'm quite proud of not being a self-entitled douche, and pardon me while I demonstrate that fact using this charming gentleman from the audience, I mean, the native culture." Aren't you supposed to think about what behavior will make the other person feel comfortable and respected, instead of thinking about what behavior would best reflect an admirable attitude on your part? I'm not sure I understand how being polite, and being self-aware of your own actions are mutually exclusive? > Second, lack of regard for social rank is part of the popular image of Americans (at least the positive popular image of Americans,) so people tend to understand inappropriately equal behavior as a reflection of Americanness instead of intentional rudeness. It turns out understanding and tolerance go both ways. I can agree with this whole heartedly. Even in places with dense collections of small ceremonies acting as the marker of social politeness (say Japan for sake of argument), making an effort does not necessarily equal being polite from their perspective, since you may not be acting in a way congruent with the local concepts of politeness (where to put your chopsticks, how low to bow, etc.) But I've found most people understand that, though you are an outsider, you're at least making an effort, which is generally appreciated. Usually, if you spend enough time there, you'll get helpful pointers from people who want to help you be polite. They wouldn't bother with this if they didn't see that you were at least attempting -- i.e. politeness is important to you, so it's worth their time and effort to tutor you.