4 ms·

Internet access has become a humanitarian right. Saying it is less important than a different tax subsidy would be interesting given most tax subsidies impact t

by Guvante 11y ago

Internet access has become a humanitarian right. Saying it is less important than a different tax subsidy would be interesting given most tax subsidies impact things of far less importance.

toast0 11y ago
And telephone access isn't? It's got taxes like crazy.
- sjwright 11y ago
  No, I don't think the telephone has ever been as important as access to the internet. In my estimation, it's not even close.
  - Retric 11y ago
    Just 911 on it's own is more important for most people than the internet.
    - Joof 11y ago
      911 is synonymous with any fast communication system. Had the internet developed before voice communication; 911 would still exist (in a different form).
  - tyingq 11y ago
    > I don't think the telephone has ever been as important as access to the internet Maybe you're thinking from some perspective I'm not seeing, but this sounds odd to me. Prior to the telephone, geographically separated people were days, weeks, or months apart when communicating with letters. The change from that to being to call people on a whim must have been life changing.
    - eru 11y ago
      You are forgetting about the telegraph! And before that, semaphores.
      - tyingq 11y ago
        I don't think the telegraph was ever really accessible to most people. Businesses, wealthy people, perhaps for rare or remarkable news for regular people.
    - sjwright 11y ago
      Long distance communication with known people is important. It pales in comparison to the communications and empowerment consequences of the likes of Google and Wikipedia.
      - tyingq 11y ago
        It's difficult to find any research in this area. What I could find generally says that the advances made in earlier years are more significant than anything recent. http://www.cepr.org/sites/default/files/policy_insights/PolicyInsight63.pdf http://www.cepr.org/sites/default/files/policy_insights/Poli...
        sjwright 11y ago
        That may be true in terms of relative orders of magnitude, but not in terms of absolute change.
notthegov 11y ago
How can internet access be a right? We can have fair access as part of the social contract; we can pass an amendment to exempt it in some special way; we can all agree to use other taxes to support it -- but we can't declare it a right. You have a natural right to communicate and perhaps a natural right to access a public system that others can access. But no one has an inherent right to tax someone, or to fund some service.
- Guvante 11y ago
  > How can internet access be a right? How can free speech be a right? Rights are arbitrarily assigned. Internet access is not a right in the US today but many point out that it could be given the importance of it.
  - notthegov 11y ago
    The general idea is that since humans are self-conscious and born with innate natural rights, that these are the rights that can never be taken away unless proven guilty of a crime in a court of law (ideally if there's an actual victim but this could be argued against). There are some 18th century philosophers who talked about two types of rights but I can't remember the analogy. But essentially, you were born with human freedom, even your ancestors and all of our ancestors in Africa. And these are the rights that existed prior to civilization, government, the Bill of Rights, the UN and the EU. This is why some say they come from God, to distinguish them from the government. But you might as well say they came from the Higgs Boson because Jefferson et al were Deists. The reason this is important is because why would you want to diminish your own personal sovereignty knowing what we all know about human nature and power? This is why the Bill of Rights says Congress shall make no law restricting Freedom of Speech. It does not grant or create a right or privilege. It acknowledges it. The organic law (Dec. of Indepedence) declares this in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Deny this to an Enlightenment-thinker, and prepare for silent revolution. We should resist the utopian temptation to accept the falsehood that rights are privileges. In the 20th century in the United States, wealthy idealists who often doubled as Marxists created the American Historical Association (historians.org), and promoted the idea that the centralization of power was always a good thing, i.e. collectivism. And to do that, they taught that truth was relative and that natural rights and classical liberalism was irrelevant in the face of supranational political utopias. This is covered in Professor Allen Bloom's book, "The Closing of the American Mind." We are all from Africa and we all have natural rights. So since the US was the first nation to acknowledge this, and since the EU does not acknowledge natural rights and in fact is a bureaucratic nightmare, then it is fair to suggest that we all are in fact "African Americans", free and individually powerful since our ancestors lived in Ethiopia and Somalia.

by Guvante 11y ago

Internet access has become a humanitarian right. Saying it is less important than a different tax subsidy would be interesting given most tax subsidies impact things of far less importance.

toast0 11y ago

And telephone access isn't? It's got taxes like crazy.

sjwright 11y ago
No, I don't think the telephone has ever been as important as access to the internet. In my estimation, it's not even close.
- Retric 11y ago
  Just 911 on it's own is more important for most people than the internet.
  - Joof 11y ago
    911 is synonymous with any fast communication system. Had the internet developed before voice communication; 911 would still exist (in a different form).
- tyingq 11y ago
  > I don't think the telephone has ever been as important as access to the internet Maybe you're thinking from some perspective I'm not seeing, but this sounds odd to me. Prior to the telephone, geographically separated people were days, weeks, or months apart when communicating with letters. The change from that to being to call people on a whim must have been life changing.
  - eru 11y ago
    You are forgetting about the telegraph! And before that, semaphores.
    - tyingq 11y ago
      I don't think the telegraph was ever really accessible to most people. Businesses, wealthy people, perhaps for rare or remarkable news for regular people.
  - sjwright 11y ago
    Long distance communication with known people is important. It pales in comparison to the communications and empowerment consequences of the likes of Google and Wikipedia.
    - tyingq 11y ago
      It's difficult to find any research in this area. What I could find generally says that the advances made in earlier years are more significant than anything recent. http://www.cepr.org/sites/default/files/policy_insights/PolicyInsight63.pdf http://www.cepr.org/sites/default/files/policy_insights/Poli...
      - sjwright 11y ago
        That may be true in terms of relative orders of magnitude, but not in terms of absolute change.

notthegov 11y ago

How can internet access be a right? We can have fair access as part of the social contract; we can pass an amendment to exempt it in some special way; we can all agree to use other taxes to support it -- but we can't declare it a right. You have a natural right to communicate and perhaps a natural right to access a public system that others can access. But no one has an inherent right to tax someone, or to fund some service.

Guvante 11y ago
> How can internet access be a right? How can free speech be a right? Rights are arbitrarily assigned. Internet access is not a right in the US today but many point out that it could be given the importance of it.
- notthegov 11y ago
  The general idea is that since humans are self-conscious and born with innate natural rights, that these are the rights that can never be taken away unless proven guilty of a crime in a court of law (ideally if there's an actual victim but this could be argued against). There are some 18th century philosophers who talked about two types of rights but I can't remember the analogy. But essentially, you were born with human freedom, even your ancestors and all of our ancestors in Africa. And these are the rights that existed prior to civilization, government, the Bill of Rights, the UN and the EU. This is why some say they come from God, to distinguish them from the government. But you might as well say they came from the Higgs Boson because Jefferson et al were Deists. The reason this is important is because why would you want to diminish your own personal sovereignty knowing what we all know about human nature and power? This is why the Bill of Rights says Congress shall make no law restricting Freedom of Speech. It does not grant or create a right or privilege. It acknowledges it. The organic law (Dec. of Indepedence) declares this in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Deny this to an Enlightenment-thinker, and prepare for silent revolution. We should resist the utopian temptation to accept the falsehood that rights are privileges. In the 20th century in the United States, wealthy idealists who often doubled as Marxists created the American Historical Association (historians.org), and promoted the idea that the centralization of power was always a good thing, i.e. collectivism. And to do that, they taught that truth was relative and that natural rights and classical liberalism was irrelevant in the face of supranational political utopias. This is covered in Professor Allen Bloom's book, "The Closing of the American Mind." We are all from Africa and we all have natural rights. So since the US was the first nation to acknowledge this, and since the EU does not acknowledge natural rights and in fact is a bureaucratic nightmare, then it is fair to suggest that we all are in fact "African Americans", free and individually powerful since our ancestors lived in Ethiopia and Somalia.