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> motherhood drags female earnings down. .... Yet one minority appears immune to this scourge: lesbians. > if employers promote them on the assumption that th

by baldfat 11y ago

> motherhood drags female earnings down. .... Yet one minority appears immune to this scourge: lesbians. > if employers promote them on the assumption that they will not have children and so devote more time to work than straight colleagues... (Edited Some Spelling Issues SRY) This seems to be the correct empirical evidence for me. I greatly admire people with a strong work ethic BUT it usually comes down to how many priorities you have above your priority to work. I feel like I have a strong work ethic but I can not compete with single, no children workers who put work above everything else or Frank Sinatra / Jimmy Johnson (Football Coach) who placed their work above their families.

samstave 11y ago
In my experience, lesbians may also exhibit more assertive traits in demanding fields similar to their male counterparts. Meaning that, perhaps, they are less likely to be taken more advantage of than their hetero counterparts only because of the innate disposition dynamic they create in dealing with others. To reiterate, lesbians, who are in high-functioning/demanding positions seem to be more willing/capable of standing up for them selves in negotiations in such a way that they can (apparently provenly) produce better results for themselves. TL;DR: assertive type-a behavior has its merits in negotiations, regardless of gender.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- mintplant 11y ago
  Aren't you just stereotyping here? How would you know whether or not a woman is Lesbian in every case?
  - samstave 11y ago
    Some lesbians are very open and obvious. I am not stereotyping.
    - Cuuugi 11y ago
      I believe you are. Plenty of Lesbians are submissive, and there are plenty of straight women that are aggressive negotiators. I work in fairly busy car dealership, and i can assure you some of the best (if not the best) sales people we have are straight women.
      - dikdik 11y ago
        LOL. Who are they selling to mostly? Let me guess....straight men.
        Cuuugi 11y ago
        There is that element undeniably, but it's not so much about being a "Pretty" girl as having "Pretty" girl confidence. The real thing is that the best ones tend to be "single" mothers, so they are very motivated. Sales is 90% motivation, talking to a lot of people. The average sales person tends to be lazy as heck.
        nommm-nommm 11y ago
        Why is single in quotes?
        dikdik 11y ago
        Sorry facts are offending people. http://www.bls.gov/cex/anthology/csxanth8.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cex/anthology/csxanth8.pdf Anyway looks like a 60:40 split between men and women for buying vehicles from 1991-2000. However, there is a much more stark difference in the types of vehicles bought. If you are mostly selling used vehicles then most of your customers are men. If you are pushing new vehicles and leases, it shifts more in favor of women.
        nommm-nommm 11y ago
        2000 was 16 years ago.
        deleted 11y ago
pc86 11y ago
I tend to agree with you. I think we hit an issue though where someone feels that they should have gotten that raise/promotion/whatever even though work is #4 on their list of priorities and everyone knows it. Not saying that's your opinion, but sometimes this attitude comes out in some of the HN comments that it's unfair for someone who works 60 hours a week and answers emails at 9 pm to get a promotion over the single mother who walks in the door at 9 am sharp and is pulling out of the parking lot at 5.
- kenjackson 11y ago
  sometimes this attitude comes out in some of the HN comments that it's unfair for someone who works 60 hours a week and answers emails at 9 pm to get a promotion over the single mother who walks in the door at 9 am sharp and is pulling out of the parking lot at 5. I think the complaint is often more -- judge the actual business impact. Not shallow shiny measures, such as how long you're in the office. Unfortunately, what I tended to see was a lot of ping pong from noon to 5pm, and then work from 5pm to midnight. Just because your workplace is your fun place, doesn't mean you deserve a promotion.
- sean-duffy 11y ago
  I think most of us think people should not be encouraged to work 60 hours a week, and that doing unpaid work and burning yourself out shouldn't be necessary in order to get a promotion. If somebody wants to go crazy and let their job take over their life then fine, but that behaviour is only going to cause problems in the long run, so it shouldn't be rewarded, and certainly shouldn't move the bar for everyone else.
  - baldfat 11y ago
    You just described ageism. They replace you with that new person who can go till they also burnout. I was in one job where the average stay was a little over 2 years. It was working in Student Life at college and you were expected to work the 8 AM - 4 PM M-F and have three nightly meetings and be on call 7 days a week 24 hours a day one week a month. If there were emergencies I would be working till 2 AM and I "COULD" call in late aka come in at 10 AM or else be viewed a slacker. After 3 years I couldn't hack it and they had dozens of applications to replace my position. Then they fired the whole team and just rehired. It is still that way 10 years later.
kcarter80 11y ago
If lesbians make more because wage setters are less concerned about them having children, what is the hypothesis for why gay men make less?
- JumpCrisscross 11y ago
  > what is the hypothesis for why gay men make less Source? Want to check if adjustments are made for occupation type.
  - baldfat 11y ago
    Now that I think we can find some interesting findings. Homophobic males are usually more tolerate of gay women.
- donatj 11y ago
  > less concerned about them having children I think it's less concern, and more the actual act of having children taking time and experience away from the persons resume.
- peatmoss 11y ago
  I have a friend who did research on this, and IIRC, I believe the hypotheses are: 1. They leave jobs after being outed and the churn results in lower earnings. 2. Two men, unencumbered by glass ceilings, forego max earnings to have better work life balance. EDIT: I should qualify that I don't remember what the conclusions were.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  They are less concerned about them having children and if they do, there is less impact to either individual because the gendered role of child care is equally applied. Gay men take a penalty for the same reason that there isn't a default woman in the relationship who will be socially pressured to care for the child and thus increases the risk that either man will be put into the role. That isn't to say this explains all of the penalty. Homophobia leading to less employment options could also be an issue (and unequal homophobia targeted at either gender).
notahacker 11y ago
The simplest explanation which covers both reported lesbian premiums and gay male penalties on earnings is that social pressure exists for the man in a heterosexual relationship to take on the responsibility of being the main earner. Even without kids, the bias is towards the woman being the most likely person to cut back on their hours, take time out of work or at least not push their career quite so hard if the household doesn't need two full time incomes, and the man being the person to take on additional workload or push for a higher-paying role if the household is struggling to make ends meet.

by baldfat 11y ago

samstave 11y ago

In my experience, lesbians may also exhibit more assertive traits in demanding fields similar to their male counterparts. Meaning that, perhaps, they are less likely to be taken more advantage of than their hetero counterparts only because of the innate disposition dynamic they create in dealing with others. To reiterate, lesbians, who are in high-functioning/demanding positions seem to be more willing/capable of standing up for them selves in negotiations in such a way that they can (apparently provenly) produce better results for themselves. TL;DR: assertive type-a behavior has its merits in negotiations, regardless of gender.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
mintplant 11y ago
Aren't you just stereotyping here? How would you know whether or not a woman is Lesbian in every case?
- samstave 11y ago
  Some lesbians are very open and obvious. I am not stereotyping.
  - Cuuugi 11y ago
    I believe you are. Plenty of Lesbians are submissive, and there are plenty of straight women that are aggressive negotiators. I work in fairly busy car dealership, and i can assure you some of the best (if not the best) sales people we have are straight women.
    - dikdik 11y ago
      LOL. Who are they selling to mostly? Let me guess....straight men.
      - Cuuugi 11y ago
        There is that element undeniably, but it's not so much about being a "Pretty" girl as having "Pretty" girl confidence. The real thing is that the best ones tend to be "single" mothers, so they are very motivated. Sales is 90% motivation, talking to a lot of people. The average sales person tends to be lazy as heck.
        nommm-nommm 11y ago
        Why is single in quotes?
      - dikdik 11y ago
        Sorry facts are offending people. http://www.bls.gov/cex/anthology/csxanth8.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cex/anthology/csxanth8.pdf Anyway looks like a 60:40 split between men and women for buying vehicles from 1991-2000. However, there is a much more stark difference in the types of vehicles bought. If you are mostly selling used vehicles then most of your customers are men. If you are pushing new vehicles and leases, it shifts more in favor of women.
        nommm-nommm 11y ago
        2000 was 16 years ago.
      - deleted 11y ago

pc86 11y ago

I tend to agree with you. I think we hit an issue though where someone feels that they should have gotten that raise/promotion/whatever even though work is #4 on their list of priorities and everyone knows it. Not saying that's your opinion, but sometimes this attitude comes out in some of the HN comments that it's unfair for someone who works 60 hours a week and answers emails at 9 pm to get a promotion over the single mother who walks in the door at 9 am sharp and is pulling out of the parking lot at 5.

kenjackson 11y ago
sometimes this attitude comes out in some of the HN comments that it's unfair for someone who works 60 hours a week and answers emails at 9 pm to get a promotion over the single mother who walks in the door at 9 am sharp and is pulling out of the parking lot at 5. I think the complaint is often more -- judge the actual business impact. Not shallow shiny measures, such as how long you're in the office. Unfortunately, what I tended to see was a lot of ping pong from noon to 5pm, and then work from 5pm to midnight. Just because your workplace is your fun place, doesn't mean you deserve a promotion.
sean-duffy 11y ago
I think most of us think people should not be encouraged to work 60 hours a week, and that doing unpaid work and burning yourself out shouldn't be necessary in order to get a promotion. If somebody wants to go crazy and let their job take over their life then fine, but that behaviour is only going to cause problems in the long run, so it shouldn't be rewarded, and certainly shouldn't move the bar for everyone else.
- baldfat 11y ago
  You just described ageism. They replace you with that new person who can go till they also burnout. I was in one job where the average stay was a little over 2 years. It was working in Student Life at college and you were expected to work the 8 AM - 4 PM M-F and have three nightly meetings and be on call 7 days a week 24 hours a day one week a month. If there were emergencies I would be working till 2 AM and I "COULD" call in late aka come in at 10 AM or else be viewed a slacker. After 3 years I couldn't hack it and they had dozens of applications to replace my position. Then they fired the whole team and just rehired. It is still that way 10 years later.

kcarter80 11y ago

If lesbians make more because wage setters are less concerned about them having children, what is the hypothesis for why gay men make less?

JumpCrisscross 11y ago
> what is the hypothesis for why gay men make less Source? Want to check if adjustments are made for occupation type.
- baldfat 11y ago
  Now that I think we can find some interesting findings. Homophobic males are usually more tolerate of gay women.
donatj 11y ago
> less concerned about them having children I think it's less concern, and more the actual act of having children taking time and experience away from the persons resume.
peatmoss 11y ago
I have a friend who did research on this, and IIRC, I believe the hypotheses are: 1. They leave jobs after being outed and the churn results in lower earnings. 2. Two men, unencumbered by glass ceilings, forego max earnings to have better work life balance. EDIT: I should qualify that I don't remember what the conclusions were.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
They are less concerned about them having children and if they do, there is less impact to either individual because the gendered role of child care is equally applied. Gay men take a penalty for the same reason that there isn't a default woman in the relationship who will be socially pressured to care for the child and thus increases the risk that either man will be put into the role. That isn't to say this explains all of the penalty. Homophobia leading to less employment options could also be an issue (and unequal homophobia targeted at either gender).

notahacker 11y ago

The simplest explanation which covers both reported lesbian premiums and gay male penalties on earnings is that social pressure exists for the man in a heterosexual relationship to take on the responsibility of being the main earner. Even without kids, the bias is towards the woman being the most likely person to cut back on their hours, take time out of work or at least not push their career quite so hard if the household doesn't need two full time incomes, and the man being the person to take on additional workload or push for a higher-paying role if the household is struggling to make ends meet.