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How is downplaying one's looks "awful" or "doing violence to yourself"? When we wear non-practical clothes (e.g. anything besides athletic wear or comfy cargo p

How is downplaying one's looks "awful" or "doing violence to yourself"? When we wear non-practical clothes (e.g. anything besides athletic wear or comfy cargo pants), the entire purpose is to cause other humans to respond to us in a way that we find favorable. I recently purchased a slim red pants designed to convey a) that I'm a moderately creative type and b) that I have a nice ass. The net result is that I get desirable attention from women I like, but also I get undesirable attention from fat chicks and gays. I can switch that undesirable attention off anytime I want - I just need to dress like a slob and/or be less careful about having a desirable body (i.e. eat more butter, do fewer exercises aimed at aesthetics, not carefully calibrate my beard). I choose not to because that undesirable attention is a small price to pay for the desirable attention I receive. Similarly, consider the daily annoyance of recruiters. Who among us would trade recruiters + super hot job market for no recruiters + humanities academic-like desperation for any job at all?

dudifordMann 11y ago
I actually had a rather lengthy debate about clothing with my fiance. It comes down to perspectives and social norms which may need to change to have equality. Disclaimer: I do understand that this is sociologically complex topic A woman may choose to wear what someone might consider a revealing piece of clothing for no other reason than she wants to and finds it "cute" (omitting why she has gotten to that conclusion e.g. marketing, etc). To that woman, she chose to wear something that make her happy. She is NOT responsible for the actions of the people around her based on how they view that article of clothing. This ends up always with either victim blaming or claims of "common sense" when really she should be able to go around topless if she so chooses without having to fear others' actions. In your case, you are already assuming reactions from others which is a whole other route in this conversation. When all is said and done, I find this to be a terribly interesting and complex topic.
- toyg 11y ago
  I never understood that line of thought. It's like saying one should be free to shout "FIRE!" in a cinema just so that he can feel happy with himself ("hey, my shouting is terrific! I carry no responsibility for what you'll make of the words I say!"). Wearing clothes is a social act, not a personal one. That's why there are laws about it. We geeks should know, considering how we softly strong-armed entire swaths of dress-code rules to bow to practicality over other pre-existing social rules. That does not mean one cannot stop himself from raping a woman if she wears X or Y (nobody loses control ever, and if one does he should be held accountable for it), but it's dishonest to pretend one should not feel attracted by people wearing clothes designed to make them look attractive.
  - dudifordMann 11y ago
    But that's just it, attraction is an inward feeling/biochemical reaction/etc. I am by no means saying that you cannot feel attracted no one can tell you how to feel. Rather, it is a matter of how you act on that attraction. That is where society says it is or is not okay to harass/act aggressive/etc. in the context of the original post, a customer was attracted to the image of the fictitious support staffer. How the customer acted shows a perhaps a lack of control. In this case it was "innocent" hitting on (not flirting as one of the other comments suggested). But the fact that the customer felt compelled to is strange in the context of customer support. Like I said, this is an interesting topic.
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    > It's like saying one should be free to shout "FIRE!" in a cinema just so that he can feel happy with himself But the difference in media and consequences matter. When the consequences involve a stampede of people, you best believe it's a different situation than if the consequences amounted to revving up insecure guys. > Wearing clothes is a social act, not a personal one. It's both. Until society tells you how you have to dress all the time, then there's a social component and a personal one.
    - toyg 11y ago
      Sure, differences matter, but the point is that there will be consequences. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that they should never be violent or threatening, but it is unreasonable to expect that there will not be any. That's just selfish entitlement: "the world should work this way because it pleases me so, regardless of facts".
peterwwillis 11y ago
I think you and vinceguidry are really missing the point. "I, and she, would rather deal with the consequences of being really attractive than to stop." There should be no consequences to how you look, in general, but especially not the kind of consequences that women have to deal with. Some people (probably most people) don't wear clothes just to get a reaction from others. They wear clothes because they just like them, and don't expect, and should not be forced to comply with, unwanted attention from anyone, simply because of how they choose to dress. vinceguidry stated as much, but then seemed to just go "oh well, that's how things are I guess." The "real answer" of "what should I do" about being treated this way is to fight this misconception that unwanted behavior is simply expected and has to be either accepted or you have to change your looks. Nobody should have to change how they look to prevent being mistreated. This is not an acceptable choice, and you should not put up with it, nor should anyone. And as far as comparing yourselves to women's experiences, yes, you may both get "undesireable attention" for the clothes you both choose to wear. But this treatment is not even remotely like the abuse women receive just for wearing a skirt, or having the audacity to have big breasts or a nice butt or a pretty face. While you are welcome to have your own opinion, lumping your own experiences in with theirs and expressing an opinion about both as if they were one experience is not only factually inaccurate, it prevents discussion about the issue at hand, which is women receive unfair and undesireable treatment from men.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  ...and the big issue facing society is, how much of that is really programmable? Shall we chemically sterilize men on one end of the spectrum? Or sequester women in convents on the other. Which in-between ideas are really practical, and which fly in the face of a million years of evolution?
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  > Some people (probably most people) don't wear clothes just to get a reaction from others. The clothes people choose to wear becomes a part of their identity. They are choosing for a reason, that reason comes from them. Unless you're a kid and your parents are picking out your clothes for you, what you wear is a reflection of who you are. Nobody deserves to receive negative attention from others based on how they dress, but it's a bit of wishful thinking to claim that there should be no consequences to how you look. People get what they work towards, not what they deserve. And two people can receive the same attention, one person can receive it positively, the other negatively. Without reading a person's mind, it's impossible to know how to 'safely' interact with them. > he "real answer" of "what should I do" about being treated this way is to fight this misconception Need to stop you right there. You can't demand that someone get political just to change their personal situation. Fighting for social justice is a privilege afforded to those who have managed to reach a point in their lives where they can afford to spend great deals of their time persuading others to change the way they think. You and I have this privilege, most people do not. Many people, if they start trying to fight the "way things are", it will get them fired. > While you are welcome to have your own opinion, lumping your own experiences in with theirs and expressing an opinion about both as if they were one experience is not only factually inaccurate, it prevents discussion about the issue at hand, which is women receive unfair and undesireable treatment from men. Nobody is doing this. I expressed an experience I had that I felt had parallels to her experience. Both experiences had parallels to the ordinary one. I shared them because I felt they'd help illustrate what goes on under their noses. It's not quite as overt as in my case, but it still happens, more subtly. I'm not trying to conflate, but to raise awareness.
the_af 11y ago
Kudos to you, but it's not that easy for everyone to switch the undesirable attention off. In some work environments, women would have to basically look like men, bald spots and beards included, in order not to be hit on, ogled, treated with condescension, or all of the above.
vinceguidry 11y ago
> I choose not to because that undesirable attention is a small price to pay for the desirable attention I receive. That's exactly my point. But note that women don't really have this option. Men will hit on them no matter how much they downplay.
jazzyk 11y ago
Off-topic, but why is attention from "fat chicks and gays" undesirable? I personally do not discriminate when someone compliments me - it does not necessarily mean they want to have sex with me and even if they do, so what? It is nice to be appreciated (especially since happens less and less often as you age :-))
- Grishnakh 11y ago
  Well, what sucks is when you only get attention from groups that you have no interest in, and the people you are interested in seem to have no interest in you. In a way, getting the interest from the undesirable people makes it even worse, because you're seeing the difference. If everyone ignored you, it wouldn't seem as bad I think. But if you're a straight dude, and you can't get a date to save your life, but gay men are constantly hitting on you, that's not going to do much for your self-esteem, it's going to make you question why you only seem to appeal to them.

dudifordMann 11y ago

I actually had a rather lengthy debate about clothing with my fiance. It comes down to perspectives and social norms which may need to change to have equality. Disclaimer: I do understand that this is sociologically complex topic A woman may choose to wear what someone might consider a revealing piece of clothing for no other reason than she wants to and finds it "cute" (omitting why she has gotten to that conclusion e.g. marketing, etc). To that woman, she chose to wear something that make her happy. She is NOT responsible for the actions of the people around her based on how they view that article of clothing. This ends up always with either victim blaming or claims of "common sense" when really she should be able to go around topless if she so chooses without having to fear others' actions. In your case, you are already assuming reactions from others which is a whole other route in this conversation. When all is said and done, I find this to be a terribly interesting and complex topic.

toyg 11y ago
I never understood that line of thought. It's like saying one should be free to shout "FIRE!" in a cinema just so that he can feel happy with himself ("hey, my shouting is terrific! I carry no responsibility for what you'll make of the words I say!"). Wearing clothes is a social act, not a personal one. That's why there are laws about it. We geeks should know, considering how we softly strong-armed entire swaths of dress-code rules to bow to practicality over other pre-existing social rules. That does not mean one cannot stop himself from raping a woman if she wears X or Y (nobody loses control ever, and if one does he should be held accountable for it), but it's dishonest to pretend one should not feel attracted by people wearing clothes designed to make them look attractive.
- dudifordMann 11y ago
  But that's just it, attraction is an inward feeling/biochemical reaction/etc. I am by no means saying that you cannot feel attracted no one can tell you how to feel. Rather, it is a matter of how you act on that attraction. That is where society says it is or is not okay to harass/act aggressive/etc. in the context of the original post, a customer was attracted to the image of the fictitious support staffer. How the customer acted shows a perhaps a lack of control. In this case it was "innocent" hitting on (not flirting as one of the other comments suggested). But the fact that the customer felt compelled to is strange in the context of customer support. Like I said, this is an interesting topic.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  > It's like saying one should be free to shout "FIRE!" in a cinema just so that he can feel happy with himself But the difference in media and consequences matter. When the consequences involve a stampede of people, you best believe it's a different situation than if the consequences amounted to revving up insecure guys. > Wearing clothes is a social act, not a personal one. It's both. Until society tells you how you have to dress all the time, then there's a social component and a personal one.
  - toyg 11y ago
    Sure, differences matter, but the point is that there will be consequences. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that they should never be violent or threatening, but it is unreasonable to expect that there will not be any. That's just selfish entitlement: "the world should work this way because it pleases me so, regardless of facts".

peterwwillis 11y ago

I think you and vinceguidry are really missing the point. "I, and she, would rather deal with the consequences of being really attractive than to stop." There should be no consequences to how you look, in general, but especially not the kind of consequences that women have to deal with. Some people (probably most people) don't wear clothes just to get a reaction from others. They wear clothes because they just like them, and don't expect, and should not be forced to comply with, unwanted attention from anyone, simply because of how they choose to dress. vinceguidry stated as much, but then seemed to just go "oh well, that's how things are I guess." The "real answer" of "what should I do" about being treated this way is to fight this misconception that unwanted behavior is simply expected and has to be either accepted or you have to change your looks. Nobody should have to change how they look to prevent being mistreated. This is not an acceptable choice, and you should not put up with it, nor should anyone. And as far as comparing yourselves to women's experiences, yes, you may both get "undesireable attention" for the clothes you both choose to wear. But this treatment is not even remotely like the abuse women receive just for wearing a skirt, or having the audacity to have big breasts or a nice butt or a pretty face. While you are welcome to have your own opinion, lumping your own experiences in with theirs and expressing an opinion about both as if they were one experience is not only factually inaccurate, it prevents discussion about the issue at hand, which is women receive unfair and undesireable treatment from men.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
...and the big issue facing society is, how much of that is really programmable? Shall we chemically sterilize men on one end of the spectrum? Or sequester women in convents on the other. Which in-between ideas are really practical, and which fly in the face of a million years of evolution?
vinceguidry 11y ago
> Some people (probably most people) don't wear clothes just to get a reaction from others. The clothes people choose to wear becomes a part of their identity. They are choosing for a reason, that reason comes from them. Unless you're a kid and your parents are picking out your clothes for you, what you wear is a reflection of who you are. Nobody deserves to receive negative attention from others based on how they dress, but it's a bit of wishful thinking to claim that there should be no consequences to how you look. People get what they work towards, not what they deserve. And two people can receive the same attention, one person can receive it positively, the other negatively. Without reading a person's mind, it's impossible to know how to 'safely' interact with them. > he "real answer" of "what should I do" about being treated this way is to fight this misconception Need to stop you right there. You can't demand that someone get political just to change their personal situation. Fighting for social justice is a privilege afforded to those who have managed to reach a point in their lives where they can afford to spend great deals of their time persuading others to change the way they think. You and I have this privilege, most people do not. Many people, if they start trying to fight the "way things are", it will get them fired. > While you are welcome to have your own opinion, lumping your own experiences in with theirs and expressing an opinion about both as if they were one experience is not only factually inaccurate, it prevents discussion about the issue at hand, which is women receive unfair and undesireable treatment from men. Nobody is doing this. I expressed an experience I had that I felt had parallels to her experience. Both experiences had parallels to the ordinary one. I shared them because I felt they'd help illustrate what goes on under their noses. It's not quite as overt as in my case, but it still happens, more subtly. I'm not trying to conflate, but to raise awareness.

the_af 11y ago

Kudos to you, but it's not that easy for everyone to switch the undesirable attention off. In some work environments, women would have to basically look like men, bald spots and beards included, in order not to be hit on, ogled, treated with condescension, or all of the above.

vinceguidry 11y ago

> I choose not to because that undesirable attention is a small price to pay for the desirable attention I receive. That's exactly my point. But note that women don't really have this option. Men will hit on them no matter how much they downplay.

jazzyk 11y ago

Off-topic, but why is attention from "fat chicks and gays" undesirable? I personally do not discriminate when someone compliments me - it does not necessarily mean they want to have sex with me and even if they do, so what? It is nice to be appreciated (especially since happens less and less often as you age :-))

Grishnakh 11y ago
Well, what sucks is when you only get attention from groups that you have no interest in, and the people you are interested in seem to have no interest in you. In a way, getting the interest from the undesirable people makes it even worse, because you're seeing the difference. If everyone ignored you, it wouldn't seem as bad I think. But if you're a straight dude, and you can't get a date to save your life, but gay men are constantly hitting on you, that's not going to do much for your self-esteem, it's going to make you question why you only seem to appeal to them.