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This is her life. She can't stop the guys from hitting on her, short of doing awful things like downplaying her looks or hiding herself away. I wear a suit and

This is her life. She can't stop the guys from hitting on her, short of doing awful things like downplaying her looks or hiding herself away. I wear a suit and tie to work every day. I didn't really understand her position until I started job hunting. I like wearing suits. I own five of them, three are custom made. Now I have to make a decision. Do I wear a suit and tie to my in-person job interviews? Coders seem to have an irrational hatred of suits and ties for some reason. The conservative choice would be to wear a polo shirt and slacks to my interviews. But to do that would put me in a weird position. Once I get the job, am I going to start wearing my suits again? When, the very first day? Or hide them away in the closet until I feel ready to? Appearance is political, and therefore dangerous. But it's also very personal, you wind up wanting to take the risks anyway just to "be who you are". To purposefully choose to be less attractive feels like you're doing violence to yourself. The only real choice, once people start noticing you and complimenting you and you start noticing what it's doing for your life, is to keep going with it. You can't just turn it off. You can choose to, but it never feels good to do that, and you're just going to face the same decision tomorrow. I, and she, would rather deal with the consequences of being really attractive than to stop. That includes being accepting of other's gifts, others' attention. When she tells me about her experiences, she's not complaining. She's noting something that she's already been dealing with for years. She's had the internal conversations with herself, should she downplay it, should she present less of herself to the world. Should she stop letting guys express their appreciation for her. Over and over again, for years. They're hard questions to contemplate, and there's only one real answer.

Michael_Murray 11y ago
This. Every guy on the planet should have to understand the deep meaning of this when relating to women.
yummyfajitas 11y ago
How is downplaying one's looks "awful" or "doing violence to yourself"? When we wear non-practical clothes (e.g. anything besides athletic wear or comfy cargo pants), the entire purpose is to cause other humans to respond to us in a way that we find favorable. I recently purchased a slim red pants designed to convey a) that I'm a moderately creative type and b) that I have a nice ass. The net result is that I get desirable attention from women I like, but also I get undesirable attention from fat chicks and gays. I can switch that undesirable attention off anytime I want - I just need to dress like a slob and/or be less careful about having a desirable body (i.e. eat more butter, do fewer exercises aimed at aesthetics, not carefully calibrate my beard). I choose not to because that undesirable attention is a small price to pay for the desirable attention I receive. Similarly, consider the daily annoyance of recruiters. Who among us would trade recruiters + super hot job market for no recruiters + humanities academic-like desperation for any job at all?
- dudifordMann 11y ago
  I actually had a rather lengthy debate about clothing with my fiance. It comes down to perspectives and social norms which may need to change to have equality. Disclaimer: I do understand that this is sociologically complex topic A woman may choose to wear what someone might consider a revealing piece of clothing for no other reason than she wants to and finds it "cute" (omitting why she has gotten to that conclusion e.g. marketing, etc). To that woman, she chose to wear something that make her happy. She is NOT responsible for the actions of the people around her based on how they view that article of clothing. This ends up always with either victim blaming or claims of "common sense" when really she should be able to go around topless if she so chooses without having to fear others' actions. In your case, you are already assuming reactions from others which is a whole other route in this conversation. When all is said and done, I find this to be a terribly interesting and complex topic.
  - toyg 11y ago
    I never understood that line of thought. It's like saying one should be free to shout "FIRE!" in a cinema just so that he can feel happy with himself ("hey, my shouting is terrific! I carry no responsibility for what you'll make of the words I say!"). Wearing clothes is a social act, not a personal one. That's why there are laws about it. We geeks should know, considering how we softly strong-armed entire swaths of dress-code rules to bow to practicality over other pre-existing social rules. That does not mean one cannot stop himself from raping a woman if she wears X or Y (nobody loses control ever, and if one does he should be held accountable for it), but it's dishonest to pretend one should not feel attracted by people wearing clothes designed to make them look attractive.
    - dudifordMann 11y ago
      But that's just it, attraction is an inward feeling/biochemical reaction/etc. I am by no means saying that you cannot feel attracted no one can tell you how to feel. Rather, it is a matter of how you act on that attraction. That is where society says it is or is not okay to harass/act aggressive/etc. in the context of the original post, a customer was attracted to the image of the fictitious support staffer. How the customer acted shows a perhaps a lack of control. In this case it was "innocent" hitting on (not flirting as one of the other comments suggested). But the fact that the customer felt compelled to is strange in the context of customer support. Like I said, this is an interesting topic.
arjie 11y ago
> Coders seem to have an irrational hatred of suits and ties for some reason. The conservative choice would be to wear a polo shirt and slacks to my interviews. Want to hear a funny thing regarding this? From _The Big Short_ by Michael Lewis: > The guys who ran money dressed as if they were going to a Yankees game. Their financial performance was supposed to be all that mattered about them, and so it caused suspicion if they dressed too well. If you saw a buy-side guy in a suit, it usually meant that he was in trouble, or scheduled to meet someone who had given him money, or both.

Michael_Murray 11y ago

This. Every guy on the planet should have to understand the deep meaning of this when relating to women.

yummyfajitas 11y ago

How is downplaying one's looks "awful" or "doing violence to yourself"? When we wear non-practical clothes (e.g. anything besides athletic wear or comfy cargo pants), the entire purpose is to cause other humans to respond to us in a way that we find favorable. I recently purchased a slim red pants designed to convey a) that I'm a moderately creative type and b) that I have a nice ass. The net result is that I get desirable attention from women I like, but also I get undesirable attention from fat chicks and gays. I can switch that undesirable attention off anytime I want - I just need to dress like a slob and/or be less careful about having a desirable body (i.e. eat more butter, do fewer exercises aimed at aesthetics, not carefully calibrate my beard). I choose not to because that undesirable attention is a small price to pay for the desirable attention I receive. Similarly, consider the daily annoyance of recruiters. Who among us would trade recruiters + super hot job market for no recruiters + humanities academic-like desperation for any job at all?

dudifordMann 11y ago
I actually had a rather lengthy debate about clothing with my fiance. It comes down to perspectives and social norms which may need to change to have equality. Disclaimer: I do understand that this is sociologically complex topic A woman may choose to wear what someone might consider a revealing piece of clothing for no other reason than she wants to and finds it "cute" (omitting why she has gotten to that conclusion e.g. marketing, etc). To that woman, she chose to wear something that make her happy. She is NOT responsible for the actions of the people around her based on how they view that article of clothing. This ends up always with either victim blaming or claims of "common sense" when really she should be able to go around topless if she so chooses without having to fear others' actions. In your case, you are already assuming reactions from others which is a whole other route in this conversation. When all is said and done, I find this to be a terribly interesting and complex topic.
- toyg 11y ago
  I never understood that line of thought. It's like saying one should be free to shout "FIRE!" in a cinema just so that he can feel happy with himself ("hey, my shouting is terrific! I carry no responsibility for what you'll make of the words I say!"). Wearing clothes is a social act, not a personal one. That's why there are laws about it. We geeks should know, considering how we softly strong-armed entire swaths of dress-code rules to bow to practicality over other pre-existing social rules. That does not mean one cannot stop himself from raping a woman if she wears X or Y (nobody loses control ever, and if one does he should be held accountable for it), but it's dishonest to pretend one should not feel attracted by people wearing clothes designed to make them look attractive.
  - dudifordMann 11y ago
    But that's just it, attraction is an inward feeling/biochemical reaction/etc. I am by no means saying that you cannot feel attracted no one can tell you how to feel. Rather, it is a matter of how you act on that attraction. That is where society says it is or is not okay to harass/act aggressive/etc. in the context of the original post, a customer was attracted to the image of the fictitious support staffer. How the customer acted shows a perhaps a lack of control. In this case it was "innocent" hitting on (not flirting as one of the other comments suggested). But the fact that the customer felt compelled to is strange in the context of customer support. Like I said, this is an interesting topic.

arjie 11y ago

> Coders seem to have an irrational hatred of suits and ties for some reason. The conservative choice would be to wear a polo shirt and slacks to my interviews. Want to hear a funny thing regarding this? From _The Big Short_ by Michael Lewis: > The guys who ran money dressed as if they were going to a Yankees game. Their financial performance was supposed to be all that mattered about them, and so it caused suspicion if they dressed too well. If you saw a buy-side guy in a suit, it usually meant that he was in trouble, or scheduled to meet someone who had given him money, or both.