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Are you used you download a zip or tar.gz from upstream full of bundled dependencies?. I don't like that. As this is opensource and I get the source, I will d

by txutxu 11y ago

Are you used you download a zip or tar.gz from upstream full of bundled dependencies?. I don't like that. As this is opensource and I get the source, I will download a full OS image or containerized binaries from third parties. Mmmm so spectacular. Apps running on chroots? We've that since the 90's, the relaxed security model of Xorg and it's client/server architecture was there already, and it was the reason to left windows 3.11/95 behind. But marketing campaigns are spectacular in effect in current money surrounded culture. Yes. Their network effect is spectacular. I would say so. Edited: missing question mark

timthelion 11y ago
You realize, that I (the author of subuser) literally live off of money I beg off my parents. I get NO money from developing this. In terms of XOrg seecurity, I've worked on that: http://subuser.org/news/0.3.html#the-xpra-x11-bridge http://subuser.org/news/0.3.html#the-xpra-x11-bridge
- txutxu 11y ago
  So you put your efforts on market trending topics. I can understand. Money surrounded culture does not exclude those that don't have the money, they are simply part of the game. This doesn't solve any problem I have currently or I cannot solve using tools I've already tested on my usage, but I hope you had fun writing the software and sharing it.
  - timthelion 11y ago
    Is there a better forum for "truely free software"? I honestly don't know of one, and I would love to find it if it exists. Personally, I too am dissatisfied with the comercial aspects of startupy-venture-opensourcedome. There has become a great deal of dishonesty and tension. The itch that I'm scratching here, is, for example, the problem of the freecad project, which is really hard to build and run from source as it uses some non-standard runtime dependencies. The typical solution has been to have all the developers run ubuntu. Subuser should make things better, because we can run ubuntu in subuser and then run subuser everywhere... This is better than using virtual machines due to the performance and integration requirements of the software at hand. The other thing that is good about subuser is the isolation that it provides. If you download some new freecad plugin from some random person, and that person made a mistake and their plugin damages your system, then that sucks. But subuser can help contain that damage. It also has some protection agains malicious software. Short of a kernel bug, it's pretty hard to break out of subuser's containers. So if you EVER download development versions of software that are from non-vetted sources, you should consider installing and running that software through subuser. It will make you safer, and if enough people do it, and make subuser images, then it'll also save everyone in the free software world a lot of time :)
    - txutxu 11y ago
      Hey, timthelion, sorry if any comment was harsh. I did look better to your software, even if I avoid docker, and it looks nicely engineered and documented. Congrats. Really. Thanks for your effort and for sharing it. To don't just another comment, regarding the apt-get stuff of other comments: I build my packages and repos the same, since the 90's... but I was not an early docker adopter, because I was unable to run private registries. I cannot compare them sorry :-) Have a nice day, and sorry for hijacking your nice project with my docker rage.
timthelion 11y ago
Subuser is not a revolutionary peice of software. You are right that it is a LOT like a zip file or tar.gz file full of bundled dependencies. It is, however, a big improvement on just that. Subuser contains the subusers, so they cannot mess with the rest of your system, making a lot eisier to trust those bundled dependencies. It also provides some rather primitive update mechanisms for those bundled dependencies. But it's main advantage is the containment and the "blank slate". In the future, I would like to expand on the vision, to include the ability to do deduplication, so that all those zip files with bundled dependencies take up less space. And deduplication done right, will save bandwidth too. Indeed, when you have these "deduplicated zip files", with deduplication done algorithmically, you'll save even MORE space and MORE bandwidth than with a traditional dependency resolving file manager. Take for example debian. Debian uses packages. These packages have dependencies. The dependencies are shared. This saves space over a case where you have a bunch of zip files with unshared dependencies. But when you update a dependency, even if only one line of one file has changed, that dependency must be downloaded completely anew. But with algorithmic de-duplication, updating one line of one file means you only have to download one line of one file anew. Space savings are there for a similar reason.
- sandGorgon 11y ago
  It is revolutionary - if you manage to build the ecosystem. Remember that Docker itself was not considered revolutionary ("yawn.. Use lxc"). I would really recommend you look at nix, zeroinstall, click packages and http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linu...
  - txutxu 11y ago
    0pointer... after break half of the internet... and need to patch the other half... now releases a pid 2 silently (see release notes for last release), because people was right, because of architecture. Fortunately still I'm free to use my non market targeted, written by myself, configuration management tool, to pick how i boot my personal systems. Sorry, will not buy more blog posts from that domain.
  - 11y ago

by txutxu 11y ago

timthelion 11y ago

You realize, that I (the author of subuser) literally live off of money I beg off my parents. I get NO money from developing this. In terms of XOrg seecurity, I've worked on that: http://subuser.org/news/0.3.html#the-xpra-x11-bridge http://subuser.org/news/0.3.html#the-xpra-x11-bridge

txutxu 11y ago
So you put your efforts on market trending topics. I can understand. Money surrounded culture does not exclude those that don't have the money, they are simply part of the game. This doesn't solve any problem I have currently or I cannot solve using tools I've already tested on my usage, but I hope you had fun writing the software and sharing it.
- timthelion 11y ago
  Is there a better forum for "truely free software"? I honestly don't know of one, and I would love to find it if it exists. Personally, I too am dissatisfied with the comercial aspects of startupy-venture-opensourcedome. There has become a great deal of dishonesty and tension. The itch that I'm scratching here, is, for example, the problem of the freecad project, which is really hard to build and run from source as it uses some non-standard runtime dependencies. The typical solution has been to have all the developers run ubuntu. Subuser should make things better, because we can run ubuntu in subuser and then run subuser everywhere... This is better than using virtual machines due to the performance and integration requirements of the software at hand. The other thing that is good about subuser is the isolation that it provides. If you download some new freecad plugin from some random person, and that person made a mistake and their plugin damages your system, then that sucks. But subuser can help contain that damage. It also has some protection agains malicious software. Short of a kernel bug, it's pretty hard to break out of subuser's containers. So if you EVER download development versions of software that are from non-vetted sources, you should consider installing and running that software through subuser. It will make you safer, and if enough people do it, and make subuser images, then it'll also save everyone in the free software world a lot of time :)
  - txutxu 11y ago
    Hey, timthelion, sorry if any comment was harsh. I did look better to your software, even if I avoid docker, and it looks nicely engineered and documented. Congrats. Really. Thanks for your effort and for sharing it. To don't just another comment, regarding the apt-get stuff of other comments: I build my packages and repos the same, since the 90's... but I was not an early docker adopter, because I was unable to run private registries. I cannot compare them sorry :-) Have a nice day, and sorry for hijacking your nice project with my docker rage.

timthelion 11y ago

Subuser is not a revolutionary peice of software. You are right that it is a LOT like a zip file or tar.gz file full of bundled dependencies. It is, however, a big improvement on just that. Subuser contains the subusers, so they cannot mess with the rest of your system, making a lot eisier to trust those bundled dependencies. It also provides some rather primitive update mechanisms for those bundled dependencies. But it's main advantage is the containment and the "blank slate". In the future, I would like to expand on the vision, to include the ability to do deduplication, so that all those zip files with bundled dependencies take up less space. And deduplication done right, will save bandwidth too. Indeed, when you have these "deduplicated zip files", with deduplication done algorithmically, you'll save even MORE space and MORE bandwidth than with a traditional dependency resolving file manager. Take for example debian. Debian uses packages. These packages have dependencies. The dependencies are shared. This saves space over a case where you have a bunch of zip files with unshared dependencies. But when you update a dependency, even if only one line of one file has changed, that dependency must be downloaded completely anew. But with algorithmic de-duplication, updating one line of one file means you only have to download one line of one file anew. Space savings are there for a similar reason.

sandGorgon 11y ago
It is revolutionary - if you manage to build the ecosystem. Remember that Docker itself was not considered revolutionary ("yawn.. Use lxc"). I would really recommend you look at nix, zeroinstall, click packages and http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linu...
- txutxu 11y ago
  0pointer... after break half of the internet... and need to patch the other half... now releases a pid 2 silently (see release notes for last release), because people was right, because of architecture. Fortunately still I'm free to use my non market targeted, written by myself, configuration management tool, to pick how i boot my personal systems. Sorry, will not buy more blog posts from that domain.
- 11y ago