8 ms·

> However, for some reason, this is not easily understood regarding people with 25 points over the average. I'm not sure how accurate this is. All the exceptio

> However, for some reason, this is not easily understood regarding people with 25 points over the average. I'm not sure how accurate this is. All the exceptionally talented kids/young people I knew growing up were nice and well-liked, well-adjusted people. All the weird kids I knew were just weird, not really especially talented. I'd like to see the numbers behind those anecdotes. There was recently an article here that discussed why extremely academically gifted children rarely become grown-up geniuses and people who move their fields forward. They stated that it's not because they are troubled, most of them are socially well-adjusted, but I can't find that article now for the lie of me.

true_religion 11y ago
I think it's orthogonal to the article. Under a system designed to the lowest common denominator, those on the low end have to put X amount of effort in order to pass. Those who are gifted have to put in X-Y effort where Y can almost nearly equal X (leading to kids not ever learning how to study). The Swedish system basically begins with the proposition that all students should put out X effort. Gifted children get more advanced work, or more quantity of work till they are putting out X effort. This isn't designed to make them better adjusted, or less 'weird'. It's just there to equip gifted students with more skills relative to the mean.
- goodJobWalrus 11y ago
  What does it take to get into a gifted class in the US? Where I grew up, anyone can apply for these schools (not everyone gets in of course).
  - dzdt 11y ago
    Education in the US is controlled mostly at the state and local levels. Some states have requirements on gifted education; some don't. Gifted programs vary from completely nonexistant to prevalent and easy to access depending on the school district.
  - bane 11y ago
    When I was growing up it was a combination of high incoming aptitude/IQ tests, teacher recommendation and a battery of other cognitive tests before being granted entry.
  - yardie 11y ago
    I was nominated by my counsellor and teachers in 5th and 6th grade. This was South Florida, other schools districts are different. I took an exam of puzzles, math, and wordplay. A few days later I received a later saying I qualified and to meet the ESL/gifted counsellor. At the time I had 8 classes. 6 of them were required: math, english, history, etc., and 2 were free electives: sports, music, technical (computers and woodshop). As a 11yo these were the few freedoms we were allowed in school and the work didn't feel like work. I enjoyed making music. I enjoyed making stupid, wooden gifts for my family and friends. So the counsellor says we're dropping your 2 electives so you can have take our gifted classes. And that is when I hoped right out of it. Now that is the gifted (also called ESL) program in none exceptional schools. It's usually just an extra class. There are schools of excellence, governor's school, magnet school, etc. Which focus on different curriculum. These will have an emphasis around math, language, arts, sports. You apply by filing an application or submitting a portfolio. Some, you have to be nominated by your teachers.
  - JohnBooty 11y ago
    In my public school system, in the suburbs of Philadelphia, admission to the gifted program was largely based on the results of IQ testing. That was back in the 1980s and 1990s; not sure how things have changed. I have to say... I thought our school system did a good job with gifted students. We had some classes with other gifted kids and a lot of classes with the school's general population. We weren't treated as elite freaks or anything, were never told we were "better", and all in all I think they did it right.
  - true_religion 11y ago
    It depends on where and when you are talking about. When I was growing up anyone who was nominated by their teachers would simply skip grades or get shifted into an honours program if it was available for their level. Just as I was graduating high school however, all the gifted programs were phased out as being unnecessary (or unfair depending on whom you talked to). There was much hay made about the tight school budget needing to go to support students who were being left behind by the new national testing standards. Now, though, ten years later, they have magnet schools for the talented which are by nomination only.
- busterarm 11y ago
  It's an interesting idea and I agree with the argument. Having been one of those 'gifted children' and gone to gifted schools where I wasn't challenged, I think this is a good idea. I basically never had to put any effort in until my last year of high school and completely breezed through my education. Once I hit university and couldn't get away with that anymore, I was totally unequipped to handle continuing my education or holding a job that matched my capabilities. I hit a wall of failure pretty hard. It probably took me another 7 years after that to get my life together where I had the habits to try and achieve things through consistent effort. And yeah, all of the depression, anxiety and substances abuse that you would expect happened too.
  - logfromblammo 11y ago
    I breezed through university. I might have worked a little harder to get a 4.0, but I knew even then that barely anyone outside of academia cares about GPA, and that I didn't want to be an academic. So I did the math, and I even made some strategic decisions to not complete some graded assignments in my last year. I'm not particularly challenged at work now, either. I'm not a very good employee. I have on several occasions had one of my bosses tell me not to do more than the minimum effort. Don't improvise. The company doesn't get paid more for excellence. Just do as you're told. He who pays the piper calls the tune, and that guy wants "Rock and Roll Part 2" by Gary Glitter (aka the Hey Song) for the 50th time in a row rather than whatever crap it is that you would prefer to play. I feel like I could accomplish very difficult tasks, but I also feel that the effort would not only go unrewarded, but that other people would actively resent me for doing them. If society loved genius, it would pay more for it. I'm not even a genius. I'm either slightly smarter than the median, or just egotistical enough to think that I am. But now I'm just a mediocre, run-of-the-mill software professional on paper, because that's what companies around here are willing to pay for, and so I eased off my throttle far enough to pretend to be that for them. Being on HN helps a lot when I'm just filling a seat. Naturally, this hasn't exactly produced a healthy relationship between me and the rest of society. I think that maybe schools don't want to produce geniuses, because they are very disruptive, and hard to please, and it's harder to keep them in line with a load of BS. There may actually be a tiny kernel of truth in the conspiracy theory that public schooling intentionally dumbs down the smartest students or endlessly occupies them with useless busy work, even as it trains up the others to be more useful as workers.
kreilly 11y ago
I think you are looking for this New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/31/opinion/sunday/how-to-raise-a-creative-child-step-one-back-off.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/31/opinion/sunday/how-to-rais...
- goodJobWalrus 11y ago
  No, it was a different one, discussed actual people who were in the news as being child prodigies, entered universities years early etc...but from what I remember their conclusion was the something like this, that those kids didn't learn to risk or learn to be creative, they were really just jumping through hoops. edit: or it could be, not sure any more...
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
egads 11y ago
> There was recently an article here that discussed why extremely academically gifted children rarely become grown-up geniuses and people who move their fields forward. They stated that it's not because they are troubled, most of them are socially well-adjusted, but I can't find that article now for the lie of me. I didn't see the article in question, but I'd put money on this being an excerpt from Adam Grant's "Originals" as it was released in the past couple of weeks and this is a point made in the opening chapter.
belorn 11y ago
I am not a researcher on the subject, and the material I have heard is primarily in Swedish. http://www.filurum.se/forskning/ http://www.filurum.se/forskning/ list research papers if you are looking for more precise numbers rather than anecdotes, and the site list a few articles in English at the bottom.
rustynails 11y ago
From my own anecdotal experience, everyone I can think of who is gifted (rather than clever) has social troubles to some degree, one of my sons included. He finds it difficult to relate to most children as he largely speaks a different language. He's a 99th percentile in most areas. However, unlike the kids in the article, he doesn't enjoy Shakespeare or fawn over Incan currency. Talking to him is amazing. His thought processes are very mature, even compared to many adults. His language (when not telling fart jokes) is eloquent. He has no choice with his peers: dumb it down or be a freak. Several of my friends fit into this profile too. None of them fit the mould painted in this article. Although, that doesn't surprise me. I found this article disappointing on several levels (eg. generalisation about gender is 'she'). There were a few points in the article that resonated with me: behavioural problems in my son (which we later categorised as Aspergers compounded with boredom) and misdiagnosis by teachers. My son was put in a special class for struggling students until I produced a WISC report showing he was gifted or near gifted. When he wrote a beautiful children's book at 5, they thought it was a forgery and ignored it until I had the WISC report to confirm his ability. The report changed a lot with his teachers. The article talks about segregation as a positive. I'm not convinced this is a positive as these children are likely going to need to integrate in broader society. I purposely put my kids at a standard but high performing school rather than choosing a special school for this reason. The results have been mixed. There is bullying by peer girls and boys and at least one 'friend' said "my mother can't see me play with you or I'll get in big trouble" (also known as Aspergers are lepers to some parents - if this is true, she is an awful person). If I have one suggestion for parents of a gifted child, it would be to accept that your child will have areas where they are smarter than you and to nurture their talent through their interests. I've recently observed at length two mothers with near gifted or gifted sons whom they mercilessly bully (I have no idea why a parent would do this to their child). Both mothers have a daughter too - and the daughter (in both instances) can't be praised enough. Two of my closest and gifted friends (50+) recalled similar bullying from their mothers (and were unsupported by weak fathers). Thankfully, my wife is not like that with our son. So, yes, I see odd behaviour from gifted children as normal due to an incompatibility at an intellectual level. Gifted is noticeably different from clever. When you talk to a 5 year old that shows complex reasoning like an adult most of the time, they are most probably gifted. Someone that knows some surprising facts is probably clever rather than gifted.
nibs 11y ago
I read somewhere (and after 30 minutes of searching, can't find the original source but will keep trying) that at IQ 130, the correlation between parental IQ and child IQ was pretty high (ie. the mean parental IQ was ~127). But for kids at IQ 160, the mean parental IQ was only slightly above average (I think it was ~102). This suggests that there is a mass of upper-middle class professionals who have similar children, but that true genius (as measured by IQ) is rare and unusual, and usually more of a burden than a gift, given the lack of a suitable environment around that individual. So the success-comes-easily IQ 130 cohort are actually not the geniuses people laud them for being, and the IQ 160 cohort is probably just deeply misunderstood and comes from a (relatively) darker, more normal childhood.

true_religion 11y ago

I think it's orthogonal to the article. Under a system designed to the lowest common denominator, those on the low end have to put X amount of effort in order to pass. Those who are gifted have to put in X-Y effort where Y can almost nearly equal X (leading to kids not ever learning how to study). The Swedish system basically begins with the proposition that all students should put out X effort. Gifted children get more advanced work, or more quantity of work till they are putting out X effort. This isn't designed to make them better adjusted, or less 'weird'. It's just there to equip gifted students with more skills relative to the mean.

goodJobWalrus 11y ago
What does it take to get into a gifted class in the US? Where I grew up, anyone can apply for these schools (not everyone gets in of course).
- dzdt 11y ago
  Education in the US is controlled mostly at the state and local levels. Some states have requirements on gifted education; some don't. Gifted programs vary from completely nonexistant to prevalent and easy to access depending on the school district.
- bane 11y ago
  When I was growing up it was a combination of high incoming aptitude/IQ tests, teacher recommendation and a battery of other cognitive tests before being granted entry.
- yardie 11y ago
  I was nominated by my counsellor and teachers in 5th and 6th grade. This was South Florida, other schools districts are different. I took an exam of puzzles, math, and wordplay. A few days later I received a later saying I qualified and to meet the ESL/gifted counsellor. At the time I had 8 classes. 6 of them were required: math, english, history, etc., and 2 were free electives: sports, music, technical (computers and woodshop). As a 11yo these were the few freedoms we were allowed in school and the work didn't feel like work. I enjoyed making music. I enjoyed making stupid, wooden gifts for my family and friends. So the counsellor says we're dropping your 2 electives so you can have take our gifted classes. And that is when I hoped right out of it. Now that is the gifted (also called ESL) program in none exceptional schools. It's usually just an extra class. There are schools of excellence, governor's school, magnet school, etc. Which focus on different curriculum. These will have an emphasis around math, language, arts, sports. You apply by filing an application or submitting a portfolio. Some, you have to be nominated by your teachers.
- JohnBooty 11y ago
  In my public school system, in the suburbs of Philadelphia, admission to the gifted program was largely based on the results of IQ testing. That was back in the 1980s and 1990s; not sure how things have changed. I have to say... I thought our school system did a good job with gifted students. We had some classes with other gifted kids and a lot of classes with the school's general population. We weren't treated as elite freaks or anything, were never told we were "better", and all in all I think they did it right.
- true_religion 11y ago
  It depends on where and when you are talking about. When I was growing up anyone who was nominated by their teachers would simply skip grades or get shifted into an honours program if it was available for their level. Just as I was graduating high school however, all the gifted programs were phased out as being unnecessary (or unfair depending on whom you talked to). There was much hay made about the tight school budget needing to go to support students who were being left behind by the new national testing standards. Now, though, ten years later, they have magnet schools for the talented which are by nomination only.
busterarm 11y ago
It's an interesting idea and I agree with the argument. Having been one of those 'gifted children' and gone to gifted schools where I wasn't challenged, I think this is a good idea. I basically never had to put any effort in until my last year of high school and completely breezed through my education. Once I hit university and couldn't get away with that anymore, I was totally unequipped to handle continuing my education or holding a job that matched my capabilities. I hit a wall of failure pretty hard. It probably took me another 7 years after that to get my life together where I had the habits to try and achieve things through consistent effort. And yeah, all of the depression, anxiety and substances abuse that you would expect happened too.
- logfromblammo 11y ago
  I breezed through university. I might have worked a little harder to get a 4.0, but I knew even then that barely anyone outside of academia cares about GPA, and that I didn't want to be an academic. So I did the math, and I even made some strategic decisions to not complete some graded assignments in my last year. I'm not particularly challenged at work now, either. I'm not a very good employee. I have on several occasions had one of my bosses tell me not to do more than the minimum effort. Don't improvise. The company doesn't get paid more for excellence. Just do as you're told. He who pays the piper calls the tune, and that guy wants "Rock and Roll Part 2" by Gary Glitter (aka the Hey Song) for the 50th time in a row rather than whatever crap it is that you would prefer to play. I feel like I could accomplish very difficult tasks, but I also feel that the effort would not only go unrewarded, but that other people would actively resent me for doing them. If society loved genius, it would pay more for it. I'm not even a genius. I'm either slightly smarter than the median, or just egotistical enough to think that I am. But now I'm just a mediocre, run-of-the-mill software professional on paper, because that's what companies around here are willing to pay for, and so I eased off my throttle far enough to pretend to be that for them. Being on HN helps a lot when I'm just filling a seat. Naturally, this hasn't exactly produced a healthy relationship between me and the rest of society. I think that maybe schools don't want to produce geniuses, because they are very disruptive, and hard to please, and it's harder to keep them in line with a load of BS. There may actually be a tiny kernel of truth in the conspiracy theory that public schooling intentionally dumbs down the smartest students or endlessly occupies them with useless busy work, even as it trains up the others to be more useful as workers.

kreilly 11y ago

I think you are looking for this New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/31/opinion/sunday/how-to-raise-a-creative-child-step-one-back-off.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/31/opinion/sunday/how-to-rais...

goodJobWalrus 11y ago
No, it was a different one, discussed actual people who were in the news as being child prodigies, entered universities years early etc...but from what I remember their conclusion was the something like this, that those kids didn't learn to risk or learn to be creative, they were really just jumping through hoops. edit: or it could be, not sure any more...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

egads 11y ago

> There was recently an article here that discussed why extremely academically gifted children rarely become grown-up geniuses and people who move their fields forward. They stated that it's not because they are troubled, most of them are socially well-adjusted, but I can't find that article now for the lie of me. I didn't see the article in question, but I'd put money on this being an excerpt from Adam Grant's "Originals" as it was released in the past couple of weeks and this is a point made in the opening chapter.

belorn 11y ago

I am not a researcher on the subject, and the material I have heard is primarily in Swedish. http://www.filurum.se/forskning/ http://www.filurum.se/forskning/ list research papers if you are looking for more precise numbers rather than anecdotes, and the site list a few articles in English at the bottom.

rustynails 11y ago

From my own anecdotal experience, everyone I can think of who is gifted (rather than clever) has social troubles to some degree, one of my sons included. He finds it difficult to relate to most children as he largely speaks a different language. He's a 99th percentile in most areas. However, unlike the kids in the article, he doesn't enjoy Shakespeare or fawn over Incan currency. Talking to him is amazing. His thought processes are very mature, even compared to many adults. His language (when not telling fart jokes) is eloquent. He has no choice with his peers: dumb it down or be a freak. Several of my friends fit into this profile too. None of them fit the mould painted in this article. Although, that doesn't surprise me. I found this article disappointing on several levels (eg. generalisation about gender is 'she'). There were a few points in the article that resonated with me: behavioural problems in my son (which we later categorised as Aspergers compounded with boredom) and misdiagnosis by teachers. My son was put in a special class for struggling students until I produced a WISC report showing he was gifted or near gifted. When he wrote a beautiful children's book at 5, they thought it was a forgery and ignored it until I had the WISC report to confirm his ability. The report changed a lot with his teachers. The article talks about segregation as a positive. I'm not convinced this is a positive as these children are likely going to need to integrate in broader society. I purposely put my kids at a standard but high performing school rather than choosing a special school for this reason. The results have been mixed. There is bullying by peer girls and boys and at least one 'friend' said "my mother can't see me play with you or I'll get in big trouble" (also known as Aspergers are lepers to some parents - if this is true, she is an awful person). If I have one suggestion for parents of a gifted child, it would be to accept that your child will have areas where they are smarter than you and to nurture their talent through their interests. I've recently observed at length two mothers with near gifted or gifted sons whom they mercilessly bully (I have no idea why a parent would do this to their child). Both mothers have a daughter too - and the daughter (in both instances) can't be praised enough. Two of my closest and gifted friends (50+) recalled similar bullying from their mothers (and were unsupported by weak fathers). Thankfully, my wife is not like that with our son. So, yes, I see odd behaviour from gifted children as normal due to an incompatibility at an intellectual level. Gifted is noticeably different from clever. When you talk to a 5 year old that shows complex reasoning like an adult most of the time, they are most probably gifted. Someone that knows some surprising facts is probably clever rather than gifted.

nibs 11y ago

I read somewhere (and after 30 minutes of searching, can't find the original source but will keep trying) that at IQ 130, the correlation between parental IQ and child IQ was pretty high (ie. the mean parental IQ was ~127). But for kids at IQ 160, the mean parental IQ was only slightly above average (I think it was ~102). This suggests that there is a mass of upper-middle class professionals who have similar children, but that true genius (as measured by IQ) is rare and unusual, and usually more of a burden than a gift, given the lack of a suitable environment around that individual. So the success-comes-easily IQ 130 cohort are actually not the geniuses people laud them for being, and the IQ 160 cohort is probably just deeply misunderstood and comes from a (relatively) darker, more normal childhood.