6 ms·

spectacular. now build a package repo, and give me "sbu-get install postgresql-9.5" which runs on both fedora and debian... and we are golden. I wonder how it

spectacular. now build a package repo, and give me "sbu-get install postgresql-9.5" which runs on both fedora and debian... and we are golden. I wonder how it compares with zeroinstall or nix

antocv 11y ago
I dont know if this is sarcasm or serious. Wasnt docker exactly meant for this purpose? docker run postgresql, oh wow.
txutxu 11y ago
Are you used you download a zip or tar.gz from upstream full of bundled dependencies?. I don't like that. As this is opensource and I get the source, I will download a full OS image or containerized binaries from third parties. Mmmm so spectacular. Apps running on chroots? We've that since the 90's, the relaxed security model of Xorg and it's client/server architecture was there already, and it was the reason to left windows 3.11/95 behind. But marketing campaigns are spectacular in effect in current money surrounded culture. Yes. Their network effect is spectacular. I would say so. Edited: missing question mark
- timthelion 11y ago
  You realize, that I (the author of subuser) literally live off of money I beg off my parents. I get NO money from developing this. In terms of XOrg seecurity, I've worked on that: http://subuser.org/news/0.3.html#the-xpra-x11-bridge http://subuser.org/news/0.3.html#the-xpra-x11-bridge
  - txutxu 11y ago
    So you put your efforts on market trending topics. I can understand. Money surrounded culture does not exclude those that don't have the money, they are simply part of the game. This doesn't solve any problem I have currently or I cannot solve using tools I've already tested on my usage, but I hope you had fun writing the software and sharing it.
    - timthelion 11y ago
      Is there a better forum for "truely free software"? I honestly don't know of one, and I would love to find it if it exists. Personally, I too am dissatisfied with the comercial aspects of startupy-venture-opensourcedome. There has become a great deal of dishonesty and tension. The itch that I'm scratching here, is, for example, the problem of the freecad project, which is really hard to build and run from source as it uses some non-standard runtime dependencies. The typical solution has been to have all the developers run ubuntu. Subuser should make things better, because we can run ubuntu in subuser and then run subuser everywhere... This is better than using virtual machines due to the performance and integration requirements of the software at hand. The other thing that is good about subuser is the isolation that it provides. If you download some new freecad plugin from some random person, and that person made a mistake and their plugin damages your system, then that sucks. But subuser can help contain that damage. It also has some protection agains malicious software. Short of a kernel bug, it's pretty hard to break out of subuser's containers. So if you EVER download development versions of software that are from non-vetted sources, you should consider installing and running that software through subuser. It will make you safer, and if enough people do it, and make subuser images, then it'll also save everyone in the free software world a lot of time :)
      - txutxu 11y ago
        Hey, timthelion, sorry if any comment was harsh. I did look better to your software, even if I avoid docker, and it looks nicely engineered and documented. Congrats. Really. Thanks for your effort and for sharing it. To don't just another comment, regarding the apt-get stuff of other comments: I build my packages and repos the same, since the 90's... but I was not an early docker adopter, because I was unable to run private registries. I cannot compare them sorry :-) Have a nice day, and sorry for hijacking your nice project with my docker rage.
- timthelion 11y ago
  Subuser is not a revolutionary peice of software. You are right that it is a LOT like a zip file or tar.gz file full of bundled dependencies. It is, however, a big improvement on just that. Subuser contains the subusers, so they cannot mess with the rest of your system, making a lot eisier to trust those bundled dependencies. It also provides some rather primitive update mechanisms for those bundled dependencies. But it's main advantage is the containment and the "blank slate". In the future, I would like to expand on the vision, to include the ability to do deduplication, so that all those zip files with bundled dependencies take up less space. And deduplication done right, will save bandwidth too. Indeed, when you have these "deduplicated zip files", with deduplication done algorithmically, you'll save even MORE space and MORE bandwidth than with a traditional dependency resolving file manager. Take for example debian. Debian uses packages. These packages have dependencies. The dependencies are shared. This saves space over a case where you have a bunch of zip files with unshared dependencies. But when you update a dependency, even if only one line of one file has changed, that dependency must be downloaded completely anew. But with algorithmic de-duplication, updating one line of one file means you only have to download one line of one file anew. Space savings are there for a similar reason.
  - sandGorgon 11y ago
    It is revolutionary - if you manage to build the ecosystem. Remember that Docker itself was not considered revolutionary ("yawn.. Use lxc"). I would really recommend you look at nix, zeroinstall, click packages and http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linu...
    - txutxu 11y ago
      0pointer... after break half of the internet... and need to patch the other half... now releases a pid 2 silently (see release notes for last release), because people was right, because of architecture. Fortunately still I'm free to use my non market targeted, written by myself, configuration management tool, to pick how i boot my personal systems. Sorry, will not buy more blog posts from that domain.
    - 11y ago
timthelion 11y ago
For postgresql, it would likely be better to use Docker directly. Subuser adds support for things like sound and GUI to Docker, for a simple database, you don't need subuser.
- sandGorgon 11y ago
  I already run my servers on docker. I was alluding to a containerized package manager. Will the golden age of a single package manager across distro be finally possible through Docker?
  - ende42 11y ago
    What about Nix (https://nixos.org/nix/ https://nixos.org/nix/)?
  - timthelion 11y ago
    Maybe... I think that if the question is "through runc compatible containers" than the answer is a definite YES, but through Docker is probably a no. Even the Docker folks tell me that I should stop using Docker and start using runc. Docker has a lot of design baggage from the server space, and when you cut that all away, you don't get much but a tiny bit of code that creates a namespace ;). But that tiny bit of code is really really revolutionary :D It is the difference between secure and reproducible isolation and "normal unix"... What I would like to have in the future, that Docker does not provide, is deduplication. If I have two images with the same file in both, then I should be able to have that take up no more space than if there was one file in one place. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sc6_XgNXyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sc6_XgNXyk
    - fapjacks 11y ago
      Well, I mean... Docker does provide deduplication on the same base image. So two containers created "FROM ubuntu:14.04" which are both reading from (for example) /etc/issue are using the same data. But you specifically mention across different images, and I just don't think there are enough similarities to warrant that functionality. I mean how many files are the same across CentOS 7 and Ubuntu 14.04? I just don't see the benefit that you do.
raesene4 11y ago
That's essentially what Docker hub already is. you can do docker pull postgres and get a postgres service which runs in a container.
- lisivka 11y ago
  Nah. With command "apt-get/yum/dnf/etc. install postgress && service postgress start" I will have postgress service up and running. Command "docker pull postgress" will just download image of postgress, which I will need to run with lot of parameters, which I need to figure out.
  - raesene4 11y ago
    you are kidding right? the commands needed are right there on the docker hub page https://hub.docker.com/_/postgres/ https://hub.docker.com/_/postgres/
    - lisivka 11y ago
      No. I never will read this page because "yum install postgress && systemctl enable postgress" just works, even in docker container (with systemd).

spectacular. now build a package repo, and give me "sbu-get install postgresql-9.5" which runs on both fedora and debian... and we are golden. I wonder how it compares with zeroinstall or nix

antocv 11y ago

I dont know if this is sarcasm or serious. Wasnt docker exactly meant for this purpose? docker run postgresql, oh wow.

txutxu 11y ago

Are you used you download a zip or tar.gz from upstream full of bundled dependencies?. I don't like that. As this is opensource and I get the source, I will download a full OS image or containerized binaries from third parties. Mmmm so spectacular. Apps running on chroots? We've that since the 90's, the relaxed security model of Xorg and it's client/server architecture was there already, and it was the reason to left windows 3.11/95 behind. But marketing campaigns are spectacular in effect in current money surrounded culture. Yes. Their network effect is spectacular. I would say so. Edited: missing question mark

timthelion 11y ago
You realize, that I (the author of subuser) literally live off of money I beg off my parents. I get NO money from developing this. In terms of XOrg seecurity, I've worked on that: http://subuser.org/news/0.3.html#the-xpra-x11-bridge http://subuser.org/news/0.3.html#the-xpra-x11-bridge
- txutxu 11y ago
  So you put your efforts on market trending topics. I can understand. Money surrounded culture does not exclude those that don't have the money, they are simply part of the game. This doesn't solve any problem I have currently or I cannot solve using tools I've already tested on my usage, but I hope you had fun writing the software and sharing it.
  - timthelion 11y ago
    Is there a better forum for "truely free software"? I honestly don't know of one, and I would love to find it if it exists. Personally, I too am dissatisfied with the comercial aspects of startupy-venture-opensourcedome. There has become a great deal of dishonesty and tension. The itch that I'm scratching here, is, for example, the problem of the freecad project, which is really hard to build and run from source as it uses some non-standard runtime dependencies. The typical solution has been to have all the developers run ubuntu. Subuser should make things better, because we can run ubuntu in subuser and then run subuser everywhere... This is better than using virtual machines due to the performance and integration requirements of the software at hand. The other thing that is good about subuser is the isolation that it provides. If you download some new freecad plugin from some random person, and that person made a mistake and their plugin damages your system, then that sucks. But subuser can help contain that damage. It also has some protection agains malicious software. Short of a kernel bug, it's pretty hard to break out of subuser's containers. So if you EVER download development versions of software that are from non-vetted sources, you should consider installing and running that software through subuser. It will make you safer, and if enough people do it, and make subuser images, then it'll also save everyone in the free software world a lot of time :)
    - txutxu 11y ago
      Hey, timthelion, sorry if any comment was harsh. I did look better to your software, even if I avoid docker, and it looks nicely engineered and documented. Congrats. Really. Thanks for your effort and for sharing it. To don't just another comment, regarding the apt-get stuff of other comments: I build my packages and repos the same, since the 90's... but I was not an early docker adopter, because I was unable to run private registries. I cannot compare them sorry :-) Have a nice day, and sorry for hijacking your nice project with my docker rage.
timthelion 11y ago
Subuser is not a revolutionary peice of software. You are right that it is a LOT like a zip file or tar.gz file full of bundled dependencies. It is, however, a big improvement on just that. Subuser contains the subusers, so they cannot mess with the rest of your system, making a lot eisier to trust those bundled dependencies. It also provides some rather primitive update mechanisms for those bundled dependencies. But it's main advantage is the containment and the "blank slate". In the future, I would like to expand on the vision, to include the ability to do deduplication, so that all those zip files with bundled dependencies take up less space. And deduplication done right, will save bandwidth too. Indeed, when you have these "deduplicated zip files", with deduplication done algorithmically, you'll save even MORE space and MORE bandwidth than with a traditional dependency resolving file manager. Take for example debian. Debian uses packages. These packages have dependencies. The dependencies are shared. This saves space over a case where you have a bunch of zip files with unshared dependencies. But when you update a dependency, even if only one line of one file has changed, that dependency must be downloaded completely anew. But with algorithmic de-duplication, updating one line of one file means you only have to download one line of one file anew. Space savings are there for a similar reason.
- sandGorgon 11y ago
  It is revolutionary - if you manage to build the ecosystem. Remember that Docker itself was not considered revolutionary ("yawn.. Use lxc"). I would really recommend you look at nix, zeroinstall, click packages and http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linu...
  - txutxu 11y ago
    0pointer... after break half of the internet... and need to patch the other half... now releases a pid 2 silently (see release notes for last release), because people was right, because of architecture. Fortunately still I'm free to use my non market targeted, written by myself, configuration management tool, to pick how i boot my personal systems. Sorry, will not buy more blog posts from that domain.
  - 11y ago

timthelion 11y ago

For postgresql, it would likely be better to use Docker directly. Subuser adds support for things like sound and GUI to Docker, for a simple database, you don't need subuser.

sandGorgon 11y ago
I already run my servers on docker. I was alluding to a containerized package manager. Will the golden age of a single package manager across distro be finally possible through Docker?
- ende42 11y ago
  What about Nix (https://nixos.org/nix/ https://nixos.org/nix/)?
- timthelion 11y ago
  Maybe... I think that if the question is "through runc compatible containers" than the answer is a definite YES, but through Docker is probably a no. Even the Docker folks tell me that I should stop using Docker and start using runc. Docker has a lot of design baggage from the server space, and when you cut that all away, you don't get much but a tiny bit of code that creates a namespace ;). But that tiny bit of code is really really revolutionary :D It is the difference between secure and reproducible isolation and "normal unix"... What I would like to have in the future, that Docker does not provide, is deduplication. If I have two images with the same file in both, then I should be able to have that take up no more space than if there was one file in one place. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sc6_XgNXyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sc6_XgNXyk
  - fapjacks 11y ago
    Well, I mean... Docker does provide deduplication on the same base image. So two containers created "FROM ubuntu:14.04" which are both reading from (for example) /etc/issue are using the same data. But you specifically mention across different images, and I just don't think there are enough similarities to warrant that functionality. I mean how many files are the same across CentOS 7 and Ubuntu 14.04? I just don't see the benefit that you do.

raesene4 11y ago

That's essentially what Docker hub already is. you can do docker pull postgres and get a postgres service which runs in a container.

lisivka 11y ago
Nah. With command "apt-get/yum/dnf/etc. install postgress && service postgress start" I will have postgress service up and running. Command "docker pull postgress" will just download image of postgress, which I will need to run with lot of parameters, which I need to figure out.
- raesene4 11y ago
  you are kidding right? the commands needed are right there on the docker hub page https://hub.docker.com/_/postgres/ https://hub.docker.com/_/postgres/
  - lisivka 11y ago
    No. I never will read this page because "yum install postgress && systemctl enable postgress" just works, even in docker container (with systemd).