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Downloading applications via a package manager is basically the same as downloading applications on your phone via an "App Store" application. (Especially if yo

Downloading applications via a package manager is basically the same as downloading applications on your phone via an "App Store" application. (Especially if you are using a package manager with a GUI) Millions of people use app stores everyday. And I'd say a huge percentage of those people are the ones who would also download a program on their PC from download.com Which sounds more accessible: 1) click package-manger program 2) type the name of the program you want to install 3) click install OR 1) open web browser 2) go to http://yahoo.com 3) type google 4) click the first link 5) google "download program_i_want" 6) click on link leading to "www.download.com/malware/viruses/tracking/program_i_want" 7) stare at the dozen different DOWNLOAD! buttons, and wonder which one 8) click the biggest flashiest one 9) wait for it to finish downloading (if it doesn't automatically start and installer) a)open File explorer b)Go to Downloads folder c)wade through the hundreds of other downloads until you find kd457sfjgs_download_app_i_want_setup_INSTALLER.exe.EXE 10)Once the installer is started click the NEXT button a dozen times, inadvertently installing extra malware each time

krapp 11y ago
You're being a bit disingenuous in making the latter seem more complicated than it actually is, though. It's only slightly more tedious than a repo, but it's no less accessible.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  In fact, the malware is often very much too accessible. On these download sites, the software you actually want to download is not the biggest "DOWNLOAD NOW!" link. If you click that, you'll get something completely different. As so many people actually do get - they install accidentally something they weren't looking for, let alone all the malware that comes with it.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Also, the world doesn't end on package repository. In my experience with Linux, a lot of software I want is either very outdated or not in the repository at all. OTOH, for all intents and purposes you can assume that if something can't be found by Google, it doesn't exist.
  - Ntrails 11y ago
    Yet when I go to grab a piece of software off google I legit have no idea which site to click on. "Is it speedfan.org or speedfan.net"? I can't remember a concrete example but I've had a few instances of being 50/50 on whether to give up altogether at the risk of getting the wrong thing
- anexprogrammer 11y ago
  No, I don't think he is. Not even a bit. Sure, for us techies there's little difference. For your typical non tech user, each of those 10 steps can cause issues. This does not mean they are a moron, just they don't grok IT. So many will download the file again each time they run it, or spam click next 20x to install, reading nothing. Or just click the topmost, or largest download GIF - which I pretty much guarantee is not the one they should use. Or install loads over the course of the PC's life, but uninstall nothing, leading to buying iPad or new PC basically because they have 4 printer drivers (pointlessly huge things these days), software for their last 3 phones, 234 screensaver apps the child thought was fun, several anti virus (none from a truly legit source). For the truly non-techies nothing has changed since the days of a web full of crap adsense 5 pagers. Click a link, click another. Main thing that's changed in 15 years? The link probably isn't blue, or underlined. The level of blind trust shown towards the web, and downloads is terrifying. "It's on the internet, it must be true."
  - cptskippy 11y ago
    > The level of blind Is just as high if not higher for a nontechnical user to use Linux. Sure they can look at the source code, but that doesn't mean they'll be able to make sense of it. What if they try to solve a problem themselves? Googling it will land them on any number of blogs or forums where people post cryptic instructions or link to bash scripts that might as well be black box binaries from their perspective.
    - astazangasta 11y ago
      >Is just as high if not higher for a nontechnical user to use Linux. Sure they can look at the source code, but that doesn't mean they'll be able to make sense of it. Except that there is no adware, malware, spyware, or anything else bundled into a Linux repo. The end user may not know what is up, but Debian (and the whole community of package managers) is doing a lot more to protect the end user than CNet, Google or Apple is doing to protect the end user. It is de rigueur that if I install an app from the app store, it will try to spy on me, export my contacts, etc. This is far less likely with a Linux repo.
cptskippy 11y ago
Your cognitive dissonance is astounding. With most package managers, unless you know exactly what you want then you're up shit creek. That's assuming you even know what a package manager is, for the millions of people using App Stores every day they'd be completely lost if you asked them to install software on a Linux system. People often don't go looking for a specific piece of software but rather an idea of what they'd like their software to do. Google and Apple have made tremendous efforts to make their stores discoverable, searchable, and to provide clear feedback and reviews from other users. They also make sure their store icons are front and center on their devices in the hopes that people can find them. The web is also littered with App Store links because the reality is that most people just Google for help. The unfortunately thing is that there's little commonality or consistency between Linux Distros so if everyone were suddenly on Linux they'd each learn something slightly unique and you'd end up with a lot of frustrated users trying to help each other out while you scoff at them in the corner saying "Hurr durr Linux is easy".
- blacksmith_tb 11y ago
  I am guessing this was intended to be something like Ubuntu Software Center, not someone using apt or dpkg straight from the CLI. If I search for 'spreadsheet' in Ubuntu Software Center, I get results that are fairly easy to work with.
Quinner 11y ago
The first case only works if you already know the name of the program you want. Otherwise you're funneling straight down the google rabbit hole.
Too 11y ago
In my experience it's more like 1) apt-get install programiwant 2) Not found, did you mean libprogramiwant-dev.0.5.1ubuntu01? 3) apt-get install libprogramiwant-dev.0.5.1ubuntu01 2) this action will require 0.00001 kb of your 1000TB hard drive, do you want to continue? (Y/n) 3) This will also install xxxxxx yyyyyy zzzzz xxxyyyyzz yyyyzzzxxx xxxxidontgiveashitaboutthisthirdpartylibraryzzzz xxxyyaaabbb xyayyyxzzzz xxxx-dev list of 1000 packages more, do you want to continue (Y/n) 4) The following packages has been kept back and will be unloaded aaaa vbbbb aabbbb bbaaa, do you want to continue (Y/n) 5) bzzzzzzz, loading 6) The file .abc.etc.conf does not match the source version and will be overwritten by updating xxxxyyyzzz, do you want to (Keep/Local/Source/Abort) 7) The file .abc.etc.conf01 does not match the source version and will be overwritten by updating xxxxyyyzzz, do you want to (Keep/Local/Source/Abort) 8) System restart required 9) programiwant 10) programiwant: command not found With ubuntus synaptics package manager you get a fancy GUI on top of this but most of the decisions and endless lists of libraries remain. There's even a "stability level" you have to choose ranging from 1 to 5, good luck with that grandma. Not saying it can't be done, the app stores are a great example of how it can work but there you are stuck inside the walled garden. And even there you still have problem #2 above of finding things, there's just so much crap in the app-store so even if you search for an exact match you will find imposterors trying to ride on the name, minecraft is a great example, search for it on Play store and you will have to scroll through pages and pages of minecraft-guides, blockcrafts, craftmines, minercrafter and whatnot before you even see the real minecraft.

krapp 11y ago

You're being a bit disingenuous in making the latter seem more complicated than it actually is, though. It's only slightly more tedious than a repo, but it's no less accessible.

ptaipale 11y ago
In fact, the malware is often very much too accessible. On these download sites, the software you actually want to download is not the biggest "DOWNLOAD NOW!" link. If you click that, you'll get something completely different. As so many people actually do get - they install accidentally something they weren't looking for, let alone all the malware that comes with it.
TeMPOraL 11y ago
Also, the world doesn't end on package repository. In my experience with Linux, a lot of software I want is either very outdated or not in the repository at all. OTOH, for all intents and purposes you can assume that if something can't be found by Google, it doesn't exist.
- Ntrails 11y ago
  Yet when I go to grab a piece of software off google I legit have no idea which site to click on. "Is it speedfan.org or speedfan.net"? I can't remember a concrete example but I've had a few instances of being 50/50 on whether to give up altogether at the risk of getting the wrong thing
anexprogrammer 11y ago
No, I don't think he is. Not even a bit. Sure, for us techies there's little difference. For your typical non tech user, each of those 10 steps can cause issues. This does not mean they are a moron, just they don't grok IT. So many will download the file again each time they run it, or spam click next 20x to install, reading nothing. Or just click the topmost, or largest download GIF - which I pretty much guarantee is not the one they should use. Or install loads over the course of the PC's life, but uninstall nothing, leading to buying iPad or new PC basically because they have 4 printer drivers (pointlessly huge things these days), software for their last 3 phones, 234 screensaver apps the child thought was fun, several anti virus (none from a truly legit source). For the truly non-techies nothing has changed since the days of a web full of crap adsense 5 pagers. Click a link, click another. Main thing that's changed in 15 years? The link probably isn't blue, or underlined. The level of blind trust shown towards the web, and downloads is terrifying. "It's on the internet, it must be true."
- cptskippy 11y ago
  > The level of blind Is just as high if not higher for a nontechnical user to use Linux. Sure they can look at the source code, but that doesn't mean they'll be able to make sense of it. What if they try to solve a problem themselves? Googling it will land them on any number of blogs or forums where people post cryptic instructions or link to bash scripts that might as well be black box binaries from their perspective.
  - astazangasta 11y ago
    >Is just as high if not higher for a nontechnical user to use Linux. Sure they can look at the source code, but that doesn't mean they'll be able to make sense of it. Except that there is no adware, malware, spyware, or anything else bundled into a Linux repo. The end user may not know what is up, but Debian (and the whole community of package managers) is doing a lot more to protect the end user than CNet, Google or Apple is doing to protect the end user. It is de rigueur that if I install an app from the app store, it will try to spy on me, export my contacts, etc. This is far less likely with a Linux repo.

cptskippy 11y ago

Your cognitive dissonance is astounding. With most package managers, unless you know exactly what you want then you're up shit creek. That's assuming you even know what a package manager is, for the millions of people using App Stores every day they'd be completely lost if you asked them to install software on a Linux system. People often don't go looking for a specific piece of software but rather an idea of what they'd like their software to do. Google and Apple have made tremendous efforts to make their stores discoverable, searchable, and to provide clear feedback and reviews from other users. They also make sure their store icons are front and center on their devices in the hopes that people can find them. The web is also littered with App Store links because the reality is that most people just Google for help. The unfortunately thing is that there's little commonality or consistency between Linux Distros so if everyone were suddenly on Linux they'd each learn something slightly unique and you'd end up with a lot of frustrated users trying to help each other out while you scoff at them in the corner saying "Hurr durr Linux is easy".

blacksmith_tb 11y ago
I am guessing this was intended to be something like Ubuntu Software Center, not someone using apt or dpkg straight from the CLI. If I search for 'spreadsheet' in Ubuntu Software Center, I get results that are fairly easy to work with.

Quinner 11y ago

The first case only works if you already know the name of the program you want. Otherwise you're funneling straight down the google rabbit hole.

Too 11y ago

In my experience it's more like 1) apt-get install programiwant 2) Not found, did you mean libprogramiwant-dev.0.5.1ubuntu01? 3) apt-get install libprogramiwant-dev.0.5.1ubuntu01 2) this action will require 0.00001 kb of your 1000TB hard drive, do you want to continue? (Y/n) 3) This will also install xxxxxx yyyyyy zzzzz xxxyyyyzz yyyyzzzxxx xxxxidontgiveashitaboutthisthirdpartylibraryzzzz xxxyyaaabbb xyayyyxzzzz xxxx-dev list of 1000 packages more, do you want to continue (Y/n) 4) The following packages has been kept back and will be unloaded aaaa vbbbb aabbbb bbaaa, do you want to continue (Y/n) 5) bzzzzzzz, loading 6) The file .abc.etc.conf does not match the source version and will be overwritten by updating xxxxyyyzzz, do you want to (Keep/Local/Source/Abort) 7) The file .abc.etc.conf01 does not match the source version and will be overwritten by updating xxxxyyyzzz, do you want to (Keep/Local/Source/Abort) 8) System restart required 9) programiwant 10) programiwant: command not found With ubuntus synaptics package manager you get a fancy GUI on top of this but most of the decisions and endless lists of libraries remain. There's even a "stability level" you have to choose ranging from 1 to 5, good luck with that grandma. Not saying it can't be done, the app stores are a great example of how it can work but there you are stuck inside the walled garden. And even there you still have problem #2 above of finding things, there's just so much crap in the app-store so even if you search for an exact match you will find imposterors trying to ride on the name, minecraft is a great example, search for it on Play store and you will have to scroll through pages and pages of minecraft-guides, blockcrafts, craftmines, minercrafter and whatnot before you even see the real minecraft.