9 ms·

It's amazing watching a normal person install something. Most people I've seen just spam the next button until the window disappears, until the software and all

It's amazing watching a normal person install something. Most people I've seen just spam the next button until the window disappears, until the software and all its friends are happily installed. I think the first step is to educate users. Or implement a package manager.

Cthulhu_ 11y ago
The problem is that installs are all TL;DR. I'm quite happy that Windows finally has an app store, which gives them some control about what can be installed on people's computers while at the same time simplifying the install process. Of course, Microsoft can't force all windows applications to only be offered via the Store, but, it was adopted quickly by OSX app builders. I think people will be more inclined to spend a bit of money on apps too if they know they're safe and you don't have to dodge a dozen 'download' buttons or convoluted install processes that ask you to install crapware. But, that's just a theory; one problem is that there's a nontrivial amount of people that go to download.com on a regular basis to install c00l n3w appz. At one point, I did too - iirc back then the computer magazines would often point to download.com. Bet some still do.
rmc 11y ago
We decades down the line. Education users won't work. Regular people just aren't gonna learn. It's time for us techies to build better software, to get laws passed that stop this sort of thing, to get websites like CNET download.com and manufactors like Lenovo blacklisted.
- cmdkeen 11y ago
  You're absolutely right. Plenty of non-tech scummy practices have been banned / curtailed under consumer protection laws. HTTPS circumventing adware is unjustifiable from a consumer protection stance.
- testerooooooo 11y ago
  I love it when people tell me they don't want to learn to use a computer because they don't need to. Then they come to me and ask me to solve their inability to read instructions... Sometimes I get mad at them... If they want to use computers they better learn to work with them. Or pay for the maintenance. It seems they don't wish to do either.
  - thirdsun 11y ago
    I can relate. Creating a text document, registering for and installing Spotify, ordering something from Amazon - those are tasks that target a very general audience. Yet there's the reluctancy in some people to deal with any of it since it's computer stuff. On the other hand you're generally expected to be able to operate a car, or a washing machine. Just imagine that you'd tell anyone that, "well, sorry, household chores aren't within my area of expertise" - that probably won't get your clothes clean.
    - raarts 11y ago
      I think a lot of people tell their SO just exactly that.
    - testerooooooo 11y ago
      Yet, somehow, all those persons have no problem at all using facebook, but ordering something from some online shop, do a google search to solve some problem, or even read the Help menu on some software is out of the question for them... It seems they have their priorities all mixed up.
      - daemin 11y ago
        It's more of a case of people not wanting to find out how things work. So many people will drive a car, use a washing machine or vacuum cleaner, or even use a phone with no idea how it works, and no intention of ever learning. If it breaks they go to the 'repair guy' that will fix their problems. Or they will scrap the old item and buy a shiny new one. One part of this comes from the fact that some things are really difficult or impossible to repair these days. Cars come with engine computers that you need special tools to access, computers and modern electronics come so integrated that you can't easily swap out components yourself. The other part is that people treat computers as one entity, not a combination of entities. So the whole device is one item, and if something doesn't work, it's all broken.
        TeMPOraL 11y ago
- userbinator 11y ago
  It took centuries or more for (language) literacy to become widespread. I think we should give it more time before coming to such conclusions. Imagine a society in which, many centuries ago, the literates decided on something similar: regular people can't be taught how to read or write, they don't need to and they won't learn.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  I'm split on this. RE education, I think this attitude is one of the bigger sources of the problems we have. Nobody expects to get into a car first time in their lives, go through a 2-minute tutorial and drive on the public road. Nobody expects to grok electric saws or soldering irons in 30 seconds. Those are all tools, and tools require some training, or at least reading the manual. Everybody knows that and thus nobody complains. OTOH, we've created a silly situation with computing where people are expecting to be able to use stuff immediately. They should not. This thing is complicated, and you have to engage your brain. Dumbing software down to create illusion of immediate competency only makes our software worse, and it makes general population stupider. As for the second point, I agree with building better software and throwing the book at CNET and Lenovo, and any other malware bundler. Seriously, this kind of behaviour should not be allowed in a civilized society.
  - rmc 11y ago
    > Nobody expects to get into a car first time in their lives, go through a 2-minute tutorial and drive on the public road. This is how people learn to drive in many countries (e.g. Ireland). Though you usually start in a quiet car park/road or similar. I always wondered about "drivers ed" classes I saw on US TV shows when I was younger, since they don't exist where I gre up.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      > This is how people learn to drive in many countries (e.g. Ireland). Though you usually start in a quiet car park/road or similar. Yes, but that's the part of the training. What I mean is that nobody will let you drive in real traffic the first time you enter the car in your life.
SixSigma 11y ago
Educating users definitely will not work.
- acveilleux 11y ago
  You're right. Once in a while, I encounter a user that has clearly given up. You can normally tell because they're running windows XP and their IE6 Crapium edition has 7 browser bars, some from defunct adware companies, and bonzi buddy in a corner...
  - SixSigma 11y ago
    You can't even say "only run software you bought from a bricks and mortar store" or "from reputable sources". Java downloaded from Oracle has the Ask.com toolbar in the installer ffs !
petetnt 11y ago
To be honest, it's not just a problem for a "normal person". I can easily admit that I could easily be bitten by something like this if one of my top 10 most used installers implemented an adware addition step. Sure, it's common sense to read what you are agreeing to and sometimes the installers are just made to deceive the end-user (I am looking at you, Flash updater). But generally you just don't have the time or don't want to read through the 7-8 pages of an installer for a program that you have already installed hundreds or thousands of times. It requires certain amount of trust and when the chain of trust is broken, I get bitten once, sure, but the program loses an user forever. The sad thing is that this isn't the case for the Grampa with 12 Ask.com toolbars installed.
- libeclipse 11y ago
  It takes about a minute, as opposed to 10 seconds, to install something if you skim each page for check boxes, as opposed to spamming next. If you can't spare that amount of time, then there's not much that anyone can do to help you.
  - mc808 11y ago
    The bare minimum corrective action when you see "value added offers" in a Windows installer is to cancel the installation and then revert to the most recent restore point. There's no reason to assume the installer will honor your "no thanks" (as it often won't) or that it hasn't already taken the opportunity to hose your system (less likely but a definite possibility with the type of person who is willing to bundle malicious garbage in their installers for a buck).
    - lmm 11y ago
      You're thinking entirely the wrong way about that "type of person". Very few people think of themselves as evil; rather they will have some rationale for how what they're doing is OK, and very different from behaviour that from the outside seems to be the same thing. They will use any number of dark patterns to get you to misclick, but I've literally never seen such an installer not honour the "no thanks" if you can find it.
scrollaway 11y ago
Proper package management is the only solution... I still manage to screw up and forget a checkbox here or there once in a while and next thing you know, I spend half an hour cleaning it up. Well, it seems to be the way Microsoft wants to go at it anyway what with the atrocious Windows store. As a sidenote, I really wish we'd get generic package management. A proper package management server and protocol that is. Something that can be used and picked up by Windows and linux distros but also by domain-specific packages (pypi, etc), browser extensions, games with addon repositories and so on. It's sad that right now we can't answer "and now we need package management" by "sure, let me fire up pkgserve.d" or something.
thirdsun 11y ago
It's even more interesting when you start the observation at the stage of downloading the software in question. I saw it with some co-workers - first google result, obviously fake colorful download buttons, ads everywhere and they finally have an (not necessarily the correct) install.exe they wouldn't think twice about actually executing it. Now imagine doing the same thing with less specific search terms like "mp3 converter" instead of Skype, VLC or Dropbox. That's a very sure way for non-technical users to mess up their system.
roddux 11y ago
I typically skim-read install screens until I see anything like "will also install" / "optional extras" / "free trial", then I slow down and untick accordingly.
Myrmornis 11y ago
> I think the first step is to educate users. Right. Because all that's preventing the world's population from developing the computer hygiene habits of anal HN readers is a few of your lessons.
return0 11y ago
Its amazing watching a normal person watching TV. They keep spamming the buttons until they find something that catches their eye. People are always going to go for minimal time/effort (and that s good), it s the responsibility if the IT industry to fix the side-effects.

Cthulhu_ 11y ago

The problem is that installs are all TL;DR. I'm quite happy that Windows finally has an app store, which gives them some control about what can be installed on people's computers while at the same time simplifying the install process. Of course, Microsoft can't force all windows applications to only be offered via the Store, but, it was adopted quickly by OSX app builders. I think people will be more inclined to spend a bit of money on apps too if they know they're safe and you don't have to dodge a dozen 'download' buttons or convoluted install processes that ask you to install crapware. But, that's just a theory; one problem is that there's a nontrivial amount of people that go to download.com on a regular basis to install c00l n3w appz. At one point, I did too - iirc back then the computer magazines would often point to download.com. Bet some still do.

rmc 11y ago

We decades down the line. Education users won't work. Regular people just aren't gonna learn. It's time for us techies to build better software, to get laws passed that stop this sort of thing, to get websites like CNET download.com and manufactors like Lenovo blacklisted.

cmdkeen 11y ago
You're absolutely right. Plenty of non-tech scummy practices have been banned / curtailed under consumer protection laws. HTTPS circumventing adware is unjustifiable from a consumer protection stance.
testerooooooo 11y ago
I love it when people tell me they don't want to learn to use a computer because they don't need to. Then they come to me and ask me to solve their inability to read instructions... Sometimes I get mad at them... If they want to use computers they better learn to work with them. Or pay for the maintenance. It seems they don't wish to do either.
- thirdsun 11y ago
  I can relate. Creating a text document, registering for and installing Spotify, ordering something from Amazon - those are tasks that target a very general audience. Yet there's the reluctancy in some people to deal with any of it since it's computer stuff. On the other hand you're generally expected to be able to operate a car, or a washing machine. Just imagine that you'd tell anyone that, "well, sorry, household chores aren't within my area of expertise" - that probably won't get your clothes clean.
  - raarts 11y ago
    I think a lot of people tell their SO just exactly that.
  - testerooooooo 11y ago
    Yet, somehow, all those persons have no problem at all using facebook, but ordering something from some online shop, do a google search to solve some problem, or even read the Help menu on some software is out of the question for them... It seems they have their priorities all mixed up.
    - daemin 11y ago
      It's more of a case of people not wanting to find out how things work. So many people will drive a car, use a washing machine or vacuum cleaner, or even use a phone with no idea how it works, and no intention of ever learning. If it breaks they go to the 'repair guy' that will fix their problems. Or they will scrap the old item and buy a shiny new one. One part of this comes from the fact that some things are really difficult or impossible to repair these days. Cars come with engine computers that you need special tools to access, computers and modern electronics come so integrated that you can't easily swap out components yourself. The other part is that people treat computers as one entity, not a combination of entities. So the whole device is one item, and if something doesn't work, it's all broken.
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
userbinator 11y ago
It took centuries or more for (language) literacy to become widespread. I think we should give it more time before coming to such conclusions. Imagine a society in which, many centuries ago, the literates decided on something similar: regular people can't be taught how to read or write, they don't need to and they won't learn.
TeMPOraL 11y ago
I'm split on this. RE education, I think this attitude is one of the bigger sources of the problems we have. Nobody expects to get into a car first time in their lives, go through a 2-minute tutorial and drive on the public road. Nobody expects to grok electric saws or soldering irons in 30 seconds. Those are all tools, and tools require some training, or at least reading the manual. Everybody knows that and thus nobody complains. OTOH, we've created a silly situation with computing where people are expecting to be able to use stuff immediately. They should not. This thing is complicated, and you have to engage your brain. Dumbing software down to create illusion of immediate competency only makes our software worse, and it makes general population stupider. As for the second point, I agree with building better software and throwing the book at CNET and Lenovo, and any other malware bundler. Seriously, this kind of behaviour should not be allowed in a civilized society.
- rmc 11y ago
  > Nobody expects to get into a car first time in their lives, go through a 2-minute tutorial and drive on the public road. This is how people learn to drive in many countries (e.g. Ireland). Though you usually start in a quiet car park/road or similar. I always wondered about "drivers ed" classes I saw on US TV shows when I was younger, since they don't exist where I gre up.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    > This is how people learn to drive in many countries (e.g. Ireland). Though you usually start in a quiet car park/road or similar. Yes, but that's the part of the training. What I mean is that nobody will let you drive in real traffic the first time you enter the car in your life.

SixSigma 11y ago

Educating users definitely will not work.

acveilleux 11y ago
You're right. Once in a while, I encounter a user that has clearly given up. You can normally tell because they're running windows XP and their IE6 Crapium edition has 7 browser bars, some from defunct adware companies, and bonzi buddy in a corner...
- SixSigma 11y ago
  You can't even say "only run software you bought from a bricks and mortar store" or "from reputable sources". Java downloaded from Oracle has the Ask.com toolbar in the installer ffs !

petetnt 11y ago

To be honest, it's not just a problem for a "normal person". I can easily admit that I could easily be bitten by something like this if one of my top 10 most used installers implemented an adware addition step. Sure, it's common sense to read what you are agreeing to and sometimes the installers are just made to deceive the end-user (I am looking at you, Flash updater). But generally you just don't have the time or don't want to read through the 7-8 pages of an installer for a program that you have already installed hundreds or thousands of times. It requires certain amount of trust and when the chain of trust is broken, I get bitten once, sure, but the program loses an user forever. The sad thing is that this isn't the case for the Grampa with 12 Ask.com toolbars installed.

libeclipse 11y ago
It takes about a minute, as opposed to 10 seconds, to install something if you skim each page for check boxes, as opposed to spamming next. If you can't spare that amount of time, then there's not much that anyone can do to help you.
- mc808 11y ago
  The bare minimum corrective action when you see "value added offers" in a Windows installer is to cancel the installation and then revert to the most recent restore point. There's no reason to assume the installer will honor your "no thanks" (as it often won't) or that it hasn't already taken the opportunity to hose your system (less likely but a definite possibility with the type of person who is willing to bundle malicious garbage in their installers for a buck).
  - lmm 11y ago
    You're thinking entirely the wrong way about that "type of person". Very few people think of themselves as evil; rather they will have some rationale for how what they're doing is OK, and very different from behaviour that from the outside seems to be the same thing. They will use any number of dark patterns to get you to misclick, but I've literally never seen such an installer not honour the "no thanks" if you can find it.

scrollaway 11y ago

Proper package management is the only solution... I still manage to screw up and forget a checkbox here or there once in a while and next thing you know, I spend half an hour cleaning it up. Well, it seems to be the way Microsoft wants to go at it anyway what with the atrocious Windows store. As a sidenote, I really wish we'd get generic package management. A proper package management server and protocol that is. Something that can be used and picked up by Windows and linux distros but also by domain-specific packages (pypi, etc), browser extensions, games with addon repositories and so on. It's sad that right now we can't answer "and now we need package management" by "sure, let me fire up pkgserve.d" or something.

thirdsun 11y ago

It's even more interesting when you start the observation at the stage of downloading the software in question. I saw it with some co-workers - first google result, obviously fake colorful download buttons, ads everywhere and they finally have an (not necessarily the correct) install.exe they wouldn't think twice about actually executing it. Now imagine doing the same thing with less specific search terms like "mp3 converter" instead of Skype, VLC or Dropbox. That's a very sure way for non-technical users to mess up their system.

roddux 11y ago

I typically skim-read install screens until I see anything like "will also install" / "optional extras" / "free trial", then I slow down and untick accordingly.

Myrmornis 11y ago

> I think the first step is to educate users. Right. Because all that's preventing the world's population from developing the computer hygiene habits of anal HN readers is a few of your lessons.

return0 11y ago

Its amazing watching a normal person watching TV. They keep spamming the buttons until they find something that catches their eye. People are always going to go for minimal time/effort (and that s good), it s the responsibility if the IT industry to fix the side-effects.