7 ms·

Hate to say it but I'd rather focus on user education than concentrate more centralized compliance control with Microsoft. I am old enough to remember how Micr

by nugget 11y ago

Hate to say it but I'd rather focus on user education than concentrate more centralized compliance control with Microsoft. I am old enough to remember how Microsoft wielded that type of control in the past. Malwarebytes alone could/should fix 90% of this problem.

dclowd9901 11y ago
It should just work. I'm not asking someone to learn infosec to use their computer. That should be the last resort.
sjwright 11y ago
Perhaps, but for the majority of users, the iOS security model happens to be extraordinarily effective. I'm not saying Microsoft should force this down everyone's throats, but I for one wouldn't see it as a bad thing if something along these lines was the default on retail purchased PCs. I say this as the "free" family tech support officer. I've moved about half of my extended family onto iPads and my life is much better.
- nugget 11y ago
  I understand where you're coming from but it's a little like saying that North Korea enjoys a low crime rate. Do we want one company to have that much control? How do you think personal computing would have evolved if Microsoft had controlled Windows applications the way that Apple controls iOS applications? One of the best things that ever happened was Windows and the web both flourishing as massive market share, mostly-open development platforms for almost two decades.
  - sjwright 11y ago
    I don't disagree, but let's not blur the lines here between people who use computers professionally and people who use computers as an appliance. We could have had an iOS-like security model on Windows for the majority of unassuming retail customers and I don't think it would have made a single jot of difference to wider flourishing. (In fact, for various reasons, I would wager that we'd have a more mature technology sector. Don't underestimate the damage caused by malware to consumer trust.)
    - pjc50 11y ago
      Web development as we know it would not exist. Microsoft would have banned competing browser engines (as is the case on iOS) and IE6 would have had 90% market share. The preferred way of doing active content would be ActiveX.
      - sjwright 11y ago
        I'm only saying it could be a default on retail purchased PCs. Not on self-built PCs and a simple choice on (re)install of Windows.
        pjc50 11y ago
        That's still a huge majority of PCs. The self-built PC has always been a bit of a market anomaly; people don't have self-built Macs and self-built cars are a truly tiny number. And I'm working on the assumption that this would have applied decades ago, when there weren't quite so many viable alternatives to the PC and Microsoft was the terrifying market monopolist.
        sjwright 11y ago
        You should also work on the assumption that a majority of people would have disabled this sandbox. Maybe instead of thinking about it as iOS-like, think about it like a "not logged in as Administrator" mode which actually worked.
        pjc50 11y ago
        OK, but if the user disables the sandbox they're vulnerable to malware, and we're back at square 1. (The goalposts seem to be very mobile here...)
  - Tepix 11y ago
    The difference is that it's voluntary. Apple has competitors. If they are too strict with their policies, developers will get angry, customers will get angry and eventually both will switch to a competitor. Apple has a strong interest in finding the right compromise between control, convenience and diversity.
mootothemax 11y ago
>Hate to say it but I'd rather focus on user education We've been trying that for the last 15 years; it doesn't work.
- Kristine1975 11y ago
  This. There was a good (and short) talk at Usenix Enigma 16 that went into this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxeIrkxRDMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxeIrkxRDMA
yitchelle 11y ago
User education is good but when it comes to you mums and dads, this will be tough. I know that my parents will not ever understand this, or even the implication of these security gaps.

by nugget 11y ago

dclowd9901 11y ago

It should just work. I'm not asking someone to learn infosec to use their computer. That should be the last resort.

sjwright 11y ago

Perhaps, but for the majority of users, the iOS security model happens to be extraordinarily effective. I'm not saying Microsoft should force this down everyone's throats, but I for one wouldn't see it as a bad thing if something along these lines was the default on retail purchased PCs. I say this as the "free" family tech support officer. I've moved about half of my extended family onto iPads and my life is much better.

nugget 11y ago
I understand where you're coming from but it's a little like saying that North Korea enjoys a low crime rate. Do we want one company to have that much control? How do you think personal computing would have evolved if Microsoft had controlled Windows applications the way that Apple controls iOS applications? One of the best things that ever happened was Windows and the web both flourishing as massive market share, mostly-open development platforms for almost two decades.
- sjwright 11y ago
  I don't disagree, but let's not blur the lines here between people who use computers professionally and people who use computers as an appliance. We could have had an iOS-like security model on Windows for the majority of unassuming retail customers and I don't think it would have made a single jot of difference to wider flourishing. (In fact, for various reasons, I would wager that we'd have a more mature technology sector. Don't underestimate the damage caused by malware to consumer trust.)
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Web development as we know it would not exist. Microsoft would have banned competing browser engines (as is the case on iOS) and IE6 would have had 90% market share. The preferred way of doing active content would be ActiveX.
    - sjwright 11y ago
      I'm only saying it could be a default on retail purchased PCs. Not on self-built PCs and a simple choice on (re)install of Windows.
      - pjc50 11y ago
        That's still a huge majority of PCs. The self-built PC has always been a bit of a market anomaly; people don't have self-built Macs and self-built cars are a truly tiny number. And I'm working on the assumption that this would have applied decades ago, when there weren't quite so many viable alternatives to the PC and Microsoft was the terrifying market monopolist.
        sjwright 11y ago
        You should also work on the assumption that a majority of people would have disabled this sandbox. Maybe instead of thinking about it as iOS-like, think about it like a "not logged in as Administrator" mode which actually worked.
        pjc50 11y ago
        OK, but if the user disables the sandbox they're vulnerable to malware, and we're back at square 1. (The goalposts seem to be very mobile here...)
- Tepix 11y ago
  The difference is that it's voluntary. Apple has competitors. If they are too strict with their policies, developers will get angry, customers will get angry and eventually both will switch to a competitor. Apple has a strong interest in finding the right compromise between control, convenience and diversity.

mootothemax 11y ago

>Hate to say it but I'd rather focus on user education We've been trying that for the last 15 years; it doesn't work.

Kristine1975 11y ago
This. There was a good (and short) talk at Usenix Enigma 16 that went into this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxeIrkxRDMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxeIrkxRDMA

yitchelle 11y ago

User education is good but when it comes to you mums and dads, this will be tough. I know that my parents will not ever understand this, or even the implication of these security gaps.