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I come from India and if USA is going socialist path I think I will better go back to India. Socialism can make even a big ship sink faster than you can imagine

by tn13 11y ago

I come from India and if USA is going socialist path I think I will better go back to India. Socialism can make even a big ship sink faster than you can imagine. I think American youth has developed a sense of entitlement and no clue about rest of the world, that is why people like Bernie are getting such support.

wrong_variable 11y ago
India's problem was never socialism vs capitalism. India's fundamental problem is systemic corruption and heavy bureaucracy. Those things can arise under a capitalist or socialist system.
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  > India's problem was never socialism vs capitalism. India's fundamental problem is systemic corruption and heavy bureaucracy. Socialism, in the context of poverty, inherently leads to corruption. This is something that's hard to understand for people who've only ever seen socialism and communism in countries that are already quite wealthy (e.g. Western Europe). I say this as someone who is from West Bengal, which has had the world's longest-serving, democratically-elected Communist government.
- holmak 11y ago
  Regardless of how you categorize the system, having more money flowing through an organization increases the incentive for the members of that system to do something unethical to take advantage of it.
- kamaal 11y ago
  As an Indian who has lived in both majorly socialist and now a mixed economy India. I can tell you corruption is way worse under a more capitalist society. Reason is simple, if people are making nice profits why not ask them to pay a little extra bribe. Every one starting from the government to the private citizen is involved. Scams run in the tune lacs of crores, government servants think they are entitled to a bribe, you will be hard pressed to get a driving license without greasing some one's palms(I was asked by a license agent, why I was worked up about paying a bribe while I was getting paid well as a programmer), the postman thinks if he delivers a important document like a passport he deserves a bribe(because you are going to US, and will earn well anyway, why not pay me a bribe tip here), clerks in the income tax office rake up all kind of false flags when questioned they will tell you, they put it out if you pay a small bribe. The list is endless. Every single activity or a movement of a file, has a bribe fee on it. Every single one, no matter what activity you do. Lastly this isn't just government corruption. Private companies have rampant corruption issues. Even in top MNC's managers routinely favor people from their states and people who speak their mother tongue. Promotions, raise, stock bonuses, salary bonuses, foreign travel and many such things are decided based on which state you come from, which language you talk, may be even caste and religion too. God save if you, if you don't have a match with your manager. But surprisingly every body thinks, every one apart from them is corrupt. So corruption is somebody else's problem. The very same manager who cheats openly will complain why India isn't making progress because of corruption. Irony. One guy even told me he was not cheating or doing anything wrong. He was simply "Helping" people from his state.
  - tn13 11y ago
    You have confused scale of corruption, definition of corruption with something that you think is wrong. I remember we had to bribe a local fair price to get sugar and better quality rice. Those days are over long back. Also I don't see private company managers favoring people from their state of region as a corruption. It all depends on company's internal policies and whether they can run profitably under those cases or not.
    - kamaal 11y ago
      >>You have confused scale of corruption Everything that I wrote, right from the prime minister's office to ordinary man on the street is public knowledge. >>definition of corruption with something that you think is wrong. If you think corruption is only when a printed note is exchanged, I wouldn't be surprised to see why its so hard to eliminate corruption in India. Bulk of the corruption doesn't see any exchange in money. Its the favors and grants that are exchanged in way that facilitate further ease in earning money. Bargaining ministries, portfolios, license et al work this way. Heck bulk of the corruption in the Media in India doesn't even involve money. >>I remember we had to bribe a local fair price to get sugar and better quality rice. Those days are over long back. When did you leave India? This was the scenario circa pre 1995. I don't even know any one close, even my relatives who are poor who take rations from government fair price since more than a decade and a half. I think only BPL people get it these days. >>Also I don't see private company managers favoring people from their state of region as a corruption. So true, most beneficiaries of a scam rarely see the scam as a scam. They see this as an one time opportunity to get ahead, and others are supposed to lie down and co operate. Like I said before, most managers who do this think they are just "helping" their pets. >>It all depends on company's internal policies and whether they can run profitably under those cases or not. A manager openly manipulates employee ratings, discriminates on the basis of language, geography, caste or religion. The person in full knowledge hands out rewards to people who don't deserve. And denies and discriminates against those who do. Not only do you see nothing wrong in it, you seem to be justifying it. Hardly surprising, why its considered impossible to eliminate corruption in India.
- tn13 11y ago
  Corruption is a very natural and logical consequence of socialism.
yeahwell 11y ago
As a counterexample, I come from the USA and live in the Netherlands. About the only thing that would get me to move back would be removing profit motive and billing overhead from health care and deflating the price of housing. I pay a substantially higher percentage of my income here in taxes than I did in the USA, out of a substantially lower salary than I made in the USA. Still totally worth it to live in a place with functional social services and infrastructure, and affordable (outside Amsterdam) housing.
- tn13 11y ago
  Right but USA is not Netherlands. USA is home to immigrants, sends rockets on moon and invents new vaccines.
- tn13 11y ago
  Just to point out healthcare sector in USA is tightly controlled by government and people don't have a lot of freedom to experiment with quality and price. It is not a surprise if in such cases a socialist government paid system works out better for most people. Though compared to India I find American healthcare far superior in quality but I don't find it worth the price.
kamaal 11y ago
>>I think American youth has developed a sense of entitlement and no clue about rest of the world, that is why people like Bernie are getting such support. As an Indian, who has experience working in the U.S.A here are statistics for you. Close to 50% in US pay taxes(Almost everybody working is paying taxes), in India close to 3% are paying taxes. I can't even imagine the level of chaos, resentment and strife that will follow any attempt by the government to bring more people into the tax base. I have relatives and friends with small businesses and shops, who don't pay a rupee in taxes, nor do they think they need to or have any responsibility to pay. I know almost any body in that position(Nearly all of India) does the same. But every one thinks, they are entitled to development. They are entitled to roads, highways, airports, energy infrastructure, irrigation infrastructure, defence and what not; all for free. I'm not least bit surprised US citizens who pay that much taxes, expecting things in return. Not to say that they don't get a good deal already. But if I were to paying up 50% of my income to bail out bankers I would probably be equally pissed.

by tn13 11y ago

wrong_variable 11y ago

India's problem was never socialism vs capitalism. India's fundamental problem is systemic corruption and heavy bureaucracy. Those things can arise under a capitalist or socialist system.

chimeracoder 11y ago
> India's problem was never socialism vs capitalism. India's fundamental problem is systemic corruption and heavy bureaucracy. Socialism, in the context of poverty, inherently leads to corruption. This is something that's hard to understand for people who've only ever seen socialism and communism in countries that are already quite wealthy (e.g. Western Europe). I say this as someone who is from West Bengal, which has had the world's longest-serving, democratically-elected Communist government.
holmak 11y ago
Regardless of how you categorize the system, having more money flowing through an organization increases the incentive for the members of that system to do something unethical to take advantage of it.
kamaal 11y ago
As an Indian who has lived in both majorly socialist and now a mixed economy India. I can tell you corruption is way worse under a more capitalist society. Reason is simple, if people are making nice profits why not ask them to pay a little extra bribe. Every one starting from the government to the private citizen is involved. Scams run in the tune lacs of crores, government servants think they are entitled to a bribe, you will be hard pressed to get a driving license without greasing some one's palms(I was asked by a license agent, why I was worked up about paying a bribe while I was getting paid well as a programmer), the postman thinks if he delivers a important document like a passport he deserves a bribe(because you are going to US, and will earn well anyway, why not pay me a bribe tip here), clerks in the income tax office rake up all kind of false flags when questioned they will tell you, they put it out if you pay a small bribe. The list is endless. Every single activity or a movement of a file, has a bribe fee on it. Every single one, no matter what activity you do. Lastly this isn't just government corruption. Private companies have rampant corruption issues. Even in top MNC's managers routinely favor people from their states and people who speak their mother tongue. Promotions, raise, stock bonuses, salary bonuses, foreign travel and many such things are decided based on which state you come from, which language you talk, may be even caste and religion too. God save if you, if you don't have a match with your manager. But surprisingly every body thinks, every one apart from them is corrupt. So corruption is somebody else's problem. The very same manager who cheats openly will complain why India isn't making progress because of corruption. Irony. One guy even told me he was not cheating or doing anything wrong. He was simply "Helping" people from his state.
- tn13 11y ago
  You have confused scale of corruption, definition of corruption with something that you think is wrong. I remember we had to bribe a local fair price to get sugar and better quality rice. Those days are over long back. Also I don't see private company managers favoring people from their state of region as a corruption. It all depends on company's internal policies and whether they can run profitably under those cases or not.
  - kamaal 11y ago
    >>You have confused scale of corruption Everything that I wrote, right from the prime minister's office to ordinary man on the street is public knowledge. >>definition of corruption with something that you think is wrong. If you think corruption is only when a printed note is exchanged, I wouldn't be surprised to see why its so hard to eliminate corruption in India. Bulk of the corruption doesn't see any exchange in money. Its the favors and grants that are exchanged in way that facilitate further ease in earning money. Bargaining ministries, portfolios, license et al work this way. Heck bulk of the corruption in the Media in India doesn't even involve money. >>I remember we had to bribe a local fair price to get sugar and better quality rice. Those days are over long back. When did you leave India? This was the scenario circa pre 1995. I don't even know any one close, even my relatives who are poor who take rations from government fair price since more than a decade and a half. I think only BPL people get it these days. >>Also I don't see private company managers favoring people from their state of region as a corruption. So true, most beneficiaries of a scam rarely see the scam as a scam. They see this as an one time opportunity to get ahead, and others are supposed to lie down and co operate. Like I said before, most managers who do this think they are just "helping" their pets. >>It all depends on company's internal policies and whether they can run profitably under those cases or not. A manager openly manipulates employee ratings, discriminates on the basis of language, geography, caste or religion. The person in full knowledge hands out rewards to people who don't deserve. And denies and discriminates against those who do. Not only do you see nothing wrong in it, you seem to be justifying it. Hardly surprising, why its considered impossible to eliminate corruption in India.
tn13 11y ago
Corruption is a very natural and logical consequence of socialism.

yeahwell 11y ago

As a counterexample, I come from the USA and live in the Netherlands. About the only thing that would get me to move back would be removing profit motive and billing overhead from health care and deflating the price of housing. I pay a substantially higher percentage of my income here in taxes than I did in the USA, out of a substantially lower salary than I made in the USA. Still totally worth it to live in a place with functional social services and infrastructure, and affordable (outside Amsterdam) housing.

tn13 11y ago
Right but USA is not Netherlands. USA is home to immigrants, sends rockets on moon and invents new vaccines.
tn13 11y ago
Just to point out healthcare sector in USA is tightly controlled by government and people don't have a lot of freedom to experiment with quality and price. It is not a surprise if in such cases a socialist government paid system works out better for most people. Though compared to India I find American healthcare far superior in quality but I don't find it worth the price.

kamaal 11y ago

>>I think American youth has developed a sense of entitlement and no clue about rest of the world, that is why people like Bernie are getting such support. As an Indian, who has experience working in the U.S.A here are statistics for you. Close to 50% in US pay taxes(Almost everybody working is paying taxes), in India close to 3% are paying taxes. I can't even imagine the level of chaos, resentment and strife that will follow any attempt by the government to bring more people into the tax base. I have relatives and friends with small businesses and shops, who don't pay a rupee in taxes, nor do they think they need to or have any responsibility to pay. I know almost any body in that position(Nearly all of India) does the same. But every one thinks, they are entitled to development. They are entitled to roads, highways, airports, energy infrastructure, irrigation infrastructure, defence and what not; all for free. I'm not least bit surprised US citizens who pay that much taxes, expecting things in return. Not to say that they don't get a good deal already. But if I were to paying up 50% of my income to bail out bankers I would probably be equally pissed.