6 ms·

For me the problem is stability and future-proofness. Technology changes very quickly. If the maintainer loses interest, the software may rot away as the depend

For me the problem is stability and future-proofness. Technology changes very quickly. If the maintainer loses interest, the software may rot away as the dependencies change, etc. Important documents often need to be stored for 5-10-20 years. Why put everything in this shiny new software, when it may change in 1 or 2 years? I think it's best to just put scanned pdfs in folders based on year and topic. Those can be easily and transparently backed up and searched. But on a few months timescale this software could be useful.

loopbit 11y ago
Funnily enough, I use a commercial app with the same name (Paperless) that does exactly that. It scans the documents, applies OCR and saves the pdfs in a folder that, in my case, is automatically synced with dropbox and backed up to a local NAS. It doesn't have search functionality (well, it does, but it's basically useless) but allows to set categories and tags, which is more than enough for me. There's an added issue with this kind of solutions, in most cases you still need to keep the original. Having them scanned is great for record keeping and for communicating with you own accountant, but if there is a problem (tax audit, proving ownership, etc, etc) you'll have to produce the paper original.
- kurt_ 11y ago
  It was also the name I choose for a similar app https://github.com/garnieretienne/paperless https://github.com/garnieretienne/paperless
- ams6110 11y ago
  Banks don't keep original paper checks any more, just a scanned copy. Fax is good enough for contracts and other legal paperwork. I was pretty sure that scanned documents are legally equivalant to originals. Is this not true?
  - loopbit 11y ago
    AFAIK, depends on the country and legislation. In Ireland (and Spain) I've had to produce originals where the signature was clearly hand-written (they looked for pen pressure points, for example). I've even had kafkaesque situations where I was asked for the original of a document that was only available online. In those cases I had to present a printed copy of the document and a signed document (from the bank in this case) saying that they didn't send hard copies/originals.
  - ics 11y ago
    You are correct. (In the United States at least.) > [...] maintain books and records by using an electronic storage system that either images their hardcopy (paper) books and records, or transfers their computerized books and records, to an electronic storage media, such as an optical disk. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/rp-97-22.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/rp-97-22.pdf
  - jjp 11y ago
    Many (most?) banks, insurance companies have done away with physical paper and are using document management solutions of one kind or another. From a UK perspective a good starting point is BS 10008[1]. However, there is no guaranteed way that every company interprets the multitude of legal and compliance obligations. I work in this space. [1] http://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/bs-10008-electronic-information-management/ http://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/bs-10008-electronic-informatio...
- forgottenpass 11y ago
  There's an added issue with this kind of solutions, in most cases you still need to keep the original. Isn't the solution just banker's boxes in the attic to house the originals? I've never quite thought of that as an issue. Every quarter or so I move a stack of papers from the home office into a box I'll probably never have to retrieve anything from.
upofadown 11y ago
That's why I archive my document scans as one bit per pixel PNGs. It ends up being 20KB-50KB per page at 150 PPI. I figure that there will always be a way to get the pixels out of a PNG. PDF is a more complex and dynamic standard.
- bonoboTP 11y ago
  That's true, but PNGs can't have a text layer for searchability.
  - zo1 11y ago
    I'm pretty sure text files can reside in the same folder as PNG files.
    - bonoboTP 11y ago
      Yes, but not all documents are trivial to convert to a text file because the layout can be quite complex. A PDF file can have little bits of text floating anywhere and when you search inside the file, you can see it highlighted at its actual position.
      - zo1 11y ago
        I've had to work with PDF files before, and they're absolutely horrible. Precisely because of what you state: "little bits of text floating anywhere". Or something like disjoint, not-grouped, lines for table drawing, instead of a generic table with formatting, width/height, etc. Though, I generally agree with you, PDF/A is quite a good way of storing documents for long-term. But, that doesn't mean that PNG files along with text files, even with x:y coordinates next to the pieces of text, aren't a feasible alternative.
- jahewson 11y ago
  PDF is certainly more complex but its an ISO standard and even has an archival version: PDF/A.
lucaspiller 11y ago
At least this is open source and you control your data vs whatever is today's popular mobile / SaaS app offering the same.
chm 11y ago
Those can be easily and transparently backed up and searched. I was recently asked if this is easy to do on Windows, especially the search part. What solution would you propose to someone who wants to index many PDF files already in such a folder structure?

loopbit 11y ago

Funnily enough, I use a commercial app with the same name (Paperless) that does exactly that. It scans the documents, applies OCR and saves the pdfs in a folder that, in my case, is automatically synced with dropbox and backed up to a local NAS. It doesn't have search functionality (well, it does, but it's basically useless) but allows to set categories and tags, which is more than enough for me. There's an added issue with this kind of solutions, in most cases you still need to keep the original. Having them scanned is great for record keeping and for communicating with you own accountant, but if there is a problem (tax audit, proving ownership, etc, etc) you'll have to produce the paper original.

kurt_ 11y ago
It was also the name I choose for a similar app https://github.com/garnieretienne/paperless https://github.com/garnieretienne/paperless
ams6110 11y ago
Banks don't keep original paper checks any more, just a scanned copy. Fax is good enough for contracts and other legal paperwork. I was pretty sure that scanned documents are legally equivalant to originals. Is this not true?
- loopbit 11y ago
  AFAIK, depends on the country and legislation. In Ireland (and Spain) I've had to produce originals where the signature was clearly hand-written (they looked for pen pressure points, for example). I've even had kafkaesque situations where I was asked for the original of a document that was only available online. In those cases I had to present a printed copy of the document and a signed document (from the bank in this case) saying that they didn't send hard copies/originals.
- ics 11y ago
  You are correct. (In the United States at least.) > [...] maintain books and records by using an electronic storage system that either images their hardcopy (paper) books and records, or transfers their computerized books and records, to an electronic storage media, such as an optical disk. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/rp-97-22.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/rp-97-22.pdf
- jjp 11y ago
  Many (most?) banks, insurance companies have done away with physical paper and are using document management solutions of one kind or another. From a UK perspective a good starting point is BS 10008[1]. However, there is no guaranteed way that every company interprets the multitude of legal and compliance obligations. I work in this space. [1] http://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/bs-10008-electronic-information-management/ http://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/bs-10008-electronic-informatio...
forgottenpass 11y ago
There's an added issue with this kind of solutions, in most cases you still need to keep the original. Isn't the solution just banker's boxes in the attic to house the originals? I've never quite thought of that as an issue. Every quarter or so I move a stack of papers from the home office into a box I'll probably never have to retrieve anything from.

upofadown 11y ago

That's why I archive my document scans as one bit per pixel PNGs. It ends up being 20KB-50KB per page at 150 PPI. I figure that there will always be a way to get the pixels out of a PNG. PDF is a more complex and dynamic standard.

bonoboTP 11y ago
That's true, but PNGs can't have a text layer for searchability.
- zo1 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure text files can reside in the same folder as PNG files.
  - bonoboTP 11y ago
    Yes, but not all documents are trivial to convert to a text file because the layout can be quite complex. A PDF file can have little bits of text floating anywhere and when you search inside the file, you can see it highlighted at its actual position.
    - zo1 11y ago
      I've had to work with PDF files before, and they're absolutely horrible. Precisely because of what you state: "little bits of text floating anywhere". Or something like disjoint, not-grouped, lines for table drawing, instead of a generic table with formatting, width/height, etc. Though, I generally agree with you, PDF/A is quite a good way of storing documents for long-term. But, that doesn't mean that PNG files along with text files, even with x:y coordinates next to the pieces of text, aren't a feasible alternative.
jahewson 11y ago
PDF is certainly more complex but its an ISO standard and even has an archival version: PDF/A.

lucaspiller 11y ago

At least this is open source and you control your data vs whatever is today's popular mobile / SaaS app offering the same.

chm 11y ago

Those can be easily and transparently backed up and searched. I was recently asked if this is easy to do on Windows, especially the search part. What solution would you propose to someone who wants to index many PDF files already in such a folder structure?