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I really dislike the sensitivity to negative feedback that has become more common over the past ten years. It used to be possible to communicate that someone's

I really dislike the sensitivity to negative feedback that has become more common over the past ten years. It used to be possible to communicate that someone's behavior is harmful without being accused of literally shitting on them. ESR's email conveys strong negative feedback—as Linus needed—and in the most deeply respectful and complimentary way I've ever seen in an "email rant". Especially from ESR lol. It's very clear that he means it from a heartfelt place and intends it to be productive. If you read that email and feel snark from it, that's projection on your part, and it speaks to an uncomfortability with criticism in your world view. You might find life happier if you see that people give negative feedback not to shit on you or snark, but because they care and want to see you succeed.

giancarlostoro 11y ago
It's really hard to give any kind of critique that benefits someone without them and everyone around them being offended. I always try to give advise about what should be done instead of what is currently being done when I find someone's done something highly inconvenient, sadly a lot of people take my comments as "pooping" on them. It is not easy trying to help people who think they're fully entitled to be higher than you no matter what. They would be too good if they did receive feedback for self-improvement though I suppose? :)
- humanrebar 11y ago
  > It's really hard to give any kind of critique that benefits someone without them and everyone around them being offended. These days, now that people define themselves, people will have their identities wrapped up in the things they make and do. In that case, I'm not sure there's a simple way to keep things from getting personal. That's a job for a rabbi, priest, pastor, mentor, or counselor, not a boss or coworker. See also: discussing politics, money, diet, weight, etc. And, yes, I'm disappointed to come to that conclusion. It seems to mean that we have to continually "handle", patronize, and manipulate people for the greater good. I'd rather treat everyone with respect and transparency. I also think I'm not particularly good at dissembling.
- jorgecurio 11y ago
  The only projection is really yourself by writing that. You made all these wild assumptions about me based on two sentences, which shows that you are a judgemental person and not fun to be around at parties. I do have a large development team I'm overseeing and every fucking time it's some old dinosaur on the team saying shit like Linus , 'back in my day you werent even born'. Well of fucking course. This just shows how out of touch the previous generation of developers are with the newer generation. I'm glad that 50+ old engineers are no longer around and have tough time getting hired. Frankly people born out of post-Sputnik all share this kind of high mightyness I'm seeing in the industry, shunning all new conventions for rigid old values. Software is about concensus folks, it's not a follow the leader to the cliff. That's North Korea.
jorgecurio 11y ago
He is shitting on them. He can't get off his mighty throne. Big fucking deal he's responsible for Linux. Let's not forget the thousands of other committers who have to put up with linus's bullshit.
aninhumer 11y ago
There are two sides to any communication, and when an attempt fails to convey the intended signal, in almost all cases both parties share the blame. One can argue about degree, but that's rarely productive. I think in most cases like these, where people are offended by criticism, the problem is primarily a mismatch of social expectations, rather than either party being obnoxious or thin-skinned. That said, in this case I tend to agree that ESR is doing an fairly good job at presenting his criticism in a constructive way, and it's certainly not too aggressive for Torvalds of all people.

giancarlostoro 11y ago

It's really hard to give any kind of critique that benefits someone without them and everyone around them being offended. I always try to give advise about what should be done instead of what is currently being done when I find someone's done something highly inconvenient, sadly a lot of people take my comments as "pooping" on them. It is not easy trying to help people who think they're fully entitled to be higher than you no matter what. They would be too good if they did receive feedback for self-improvement though I suppose? :)

humanrebar 11y ago
> It's really hard to give any kind of critique that benefits someone without them and everyone around them being offended. These days, now that people define themselves, people will have their identities wrapped up in the things they make and do. In that case, I'm not sure there's a simple way to keep things from getting personal. That's a job for a rabbi, priest, pastor, mentor, or counselor, not a boss or coworker. See also: discussing politics, money, diet, weight, etc. And, yes, I'm disappointed to come to that conclusion. It seems to mean that we have to continually "handle", patronize, and manipulate people for the greater good. I'd rather treat everyone with respect and transparency. I also think I'm not particularly good at dissembling.
jorgecurio 11y ago
The only projection is really yourself by writing that. You made all these wild assumptions about me based on two sentences, which shows that you are a judgemental person and not fun to be around at parties. I do have a large development team I'm overseeing and every fucking time it's some old dinosaur on the team saying shit like Linus , 'back in my day you werent even born'. Well of fucking course. This just shows how out of touch the previous generation of developers are with the newer generation. I'm glad that 50+ old engineers are no longer around and have tough time getting hired. Frankly people born out of post-Sputnik all share this kind of high mightyness I'm seeing in the industry, shunning all new conventions for rigid old values. Software is about concensus folks, it's not a follow the leader to the cliff. That's North Korea.

jorgecurio 11y ago

He is shitting on them. He can't get off his mighty throne. Big fucking deal he's responsible for Linux. Let's not forget the thousands of other committers who have to put up with linus's bullshit.

aninhumer 11y ago

There are two sides to any communication, and when an attempt fails to convey the intended signal, in almost all cases both parties share the blame. One can argue about degree, but that's rarely productive. I think in most cases like these, where people are offended by criticism, the problem is primarily a mismatch of social expectations, rather than either party being obnoxious or thin-skinned. That said, in this case I tend to agree that ESR is doing an fairly good job at presenting his criticism in a constructive way, and it's certainly not too aggressive for Torvalds of all people.