5 ms·

ESR showed his wisdom. That is a nice post. I like this quote: > When you were in college, did you ever meet bright > kids who graduated top of their class

ESR showed his wisdom. That is a nice post. I like this quote: > When you were in college, did you ever meet bright > kids who graduated top of their class in high-school > and then floundered freshman year in college because > they had never learned how to study? Yeap. I also met a few who thought they were smart, then gained a secret terror that they were secretly stupid because they found CS hard. Some things you have to work at before you learn them.

WormyMcSquirmy 11y ago
I can relate to this. I'm a SE now but when I was in university I didn't bother studying, especially for an algorithms/data structures class. I did ok in the class (well below my average) and made up for the relatively bad mark in other classes. Now I really wish I had of just worked at it because I'm trying to fill this knowledge gap now after work. It would have been far easier if I had just studied it properly the first time.
WalterBright 11y ago
I was one of those freshman who floundered his first year because of execrable study habits. It was a good thing my freshman year was pass/fail. I didn't figure things out till the next year.
no_wave 11y ago
Was he at all correct in thinking that this applied to Torvalds? Time seems to have proven that ESR was completely off-base.
- ktRolster 11y ago
  If Linus really wasn't using source control at that time, then yes, he was correct lol
- girvo 11y ago
  Linus did change his approach, somewhat, slightly. Linux kernel development is less of the wild-west that it used to be, at least. Heck, Linus ended up writing git!
  - gansai 11y ago
    almost felt the same thing. Felt as if this mail by Eric kind of subconsciously forced Linus to write git.
    - watmough 11y ago
      Guilting Linus into writing Git. What a thing!
    - iolothebard 11y ago
      No this helped him move to BitKeeper.
- toyg 11y ago
  To be fair, Linus did change. That charge about not valuing version control and systematic release practices? He built git in 2005. Kernel release practices are now a well-oiled machine. And overall the kernel has likely got more modular, not less, over the years (although I have not had a look in a while, but that was the trend a few years ago). ESR might have been wrong on the specific item at hand (I have not read the whole thread, and he, ESR was wrong on a lot of things over the years) but some of his arguments are definitely right - at least seen from a "gifted something" who flopped in uni ;)
  - qb45 11y ago
    But was it due to ESR's ramblings or due to patches overflowing his inbox capacity? Personally, for years I had been completely ignoring everybody who framed something as "a better alternative to talent" (wtf?) or said the magic words "you are smarter than me". They correlated too well with "stupid ideas I knew (or quickly checked) to be wrong". Nowadays I'm trying to fish for useful information even in messages which push my bullshit-o-meter out of scale, but it takes work. If you want to maximize your chance of being treated seriously, stick to constructive arguments about the problem at hand, not some generic unfalsifiable wisdom.
    - lilbobbytables 11y ago
      The reason for that way of phrasing is because it appeals to ego. If you want someone to do something, particularly someone with a known ego, then this is an effective way to get them to listen to you and not dismiss you. Of course, there's a fine line between stroking and patronizing, though.
      - qb45 11y ago
        No, it's a trap. It works until you get to those with really big egos who take pride in dismantling such tricks and gaming others by pretending to fall for their games. These need higher levels of gaming. But in the end, if you truly think that something is a good idea for everyone involved, just explain why.
    - 11y ago
- Vivtek 11y ago
  Possibly Torvalds can learn from good advice, then?
- st3v3r 11y ago
  Did it? Or was this part of a wakeup call that Torvalds needed to change things? If this exchange, or a similar one, had not taken place, would things be the way they are today? Or would the predictions of this email have come to fruition?
gpvos 11y ago
Yeah, that's me. Even sailed through all years of university with high marks without having to do much. Until the graduation project, which became an utter failure. Ouch.
crazypyro 11y ago
I managed to get through college keeping the same crappy (read: None) study habits as in high school, but I've always struggled with gaining the work ethic to actually work on side projects I'm interested in instead of coming home from work and playing video games all night or other vices. I've almost gained a secret terror inside myself that I am just not the type of person to have a strong enough work ethic to get into the habit of developing in my free time and its been difficult for me to self motivate, even though once I get started, I tend to enjoy programming outside of work. I get all my work done quickly and efficiently at my job, but I almost wish that I didn't have a high natural aptitude so I would have had a strong necessity to gain these skills for my personal life.
- ashark 11y ago
  Wow, are you me? I suspect that if I were even a little dumber (and mind you: I'm bright, but not that bright, ya know?) I'd probably be homeless instead of doing pretty damn well as a developer. Then again, maybe I'd be better motivated if couldn't achieve 7-8/10 results on a 5/10 level of effort. Only trouble is when I need to hit 9 or 10 on a deadline... Weird thing is, I have a phenomenal work ethic on projects that involve physical labor, and not just the purely mindless kind, provided I'm not the only one working on the project—if it's solely up to me to start it and follow through on my own, it won't happen until I have one of my "I feel like I can conquer the world!" days when I inexplicably feel full of energy and confidence and motivation, and I only get those a handful of times a year. Anyway, point is, that tells me it's not some pervasive defect in my very being. I can have a great work ethic, without even trying, really, under the right circumstances, and I feel good when I do—I don't work grudgingly in those cases. Curious if you've observed similar things in yourself. As for modifying my behavior and fighting laziness: I've found I've gotten a bit better at this naturally as I've grown older (now early 30s) and sometimes actually win the battle of wills with myself, but my main insight has been that if I'm serious about something I must engineer my environment for success. Sorry to say it, but if other things are taking up time you want to spend on something else, your best solution may be to mercilessly eliminate distractions as you find them while also making it easier to choose to do the things you wish you would do by putting the tools and materials you need (if any) somewhere convenient. Like, sell-your-gaming-computer/consoles—pretty extreme. Or at least put them somewhere really out of the way. Maybe find some way to unplug it all and stick it in a closet, and always put it back when you're done. It's tough, but it works. Given this discovery, I dream of a world where I can live in one house engineered for learning and productivity most of the time and another with all the distractions I enjoy the rest of the time. If only houses weren't so expensive, heh. Short of that, you can commit to only engaging in your distractions in the best possible way. "I can watch movies or TV or play video games, but only ones of high artistic merit or great significance". "If I want to switch windows away from work and read crap on my laptop, that 'crap' must be a classic from Project Gutenberg." "If I pull out my phone for no immediate purpose, the only thing I can do is run through flash cards, or Duolingo". That kind of thing. It's usually harder (though far from impossible) to over indulge with restrictions like that in place, provided you can stick to it—such media is chewier, less addictive. Doesn't make you feel as bad afterward. Steak and asparagus versus cotton candy. For my part, HN will probably have to go soon, and I may start unplugging my Internet a few days a week. I'll have to experiment with the latter, we'll see how it goes.

WormyMcSquirmy 11y ago

I can relate to this. I'm a SE now but when I was in university I didn't bother studying, especially for an algorithms/data structures class. I did ok in the class (well below my average) and made up for the relatively bad mark in other classes. Now I really wish I had of just worked at it because I'm trying to fill this knowledge gap now after work. It would have been far easier if I had just studied it properly the first time.

WalterBright 11y ago

I was one of those freshman who floundered his first year because of execrable study habits. It was a good thing my freshman year was pass/fail. I didn't figure things out till the next year.

no_wave 11y ago

Was he at all correct in thinking that this applied to Torvalds? Time seems to have proven that ESR was completely off-base.

ktRolster 11y ago
If Linus really wasn't using source control at that time, then yes, he was correct lol
girvo 11y ago
Linus did change his approach, somewhat, slightly. Linux kernel development is less of the wild-west that it used to be, at least. Heck, Linus ended up writing git!
- gansai 11y ago
  almost felt the same thing. Felt as if this mail by Eric kind of subconsciously forced Linus to write git.
  - watmough 11y ago
    Guilting Linus into writing Git. What a thing!
  - iolothebard 11y ago
    No this helped him move to BitKeeper.
toyg 11y ago
To be fair, Linus did change. That charge about not valuing version control and systematic release practices? He built git in 2005. Kernel release practices are now a well-oiled machine. And overall the kernel has likely got more modular, not less, over the years (although I have not had a look in a while, but that was the trend a few years ago). ESR might have been wrong on the specific item at hand (I have not read the whole thread, and he, ESR was wrong on a lot of things over the years) but some of his arguments are definitely right - at least seen from a "gifted something" who flopped in uni ;)
- qb45 11y ago
  But was it due to ESR's ramblings or due to patches overflowing his inbox capacity? Personally, for years I had been completely ignoring everybody who framed something as "a better alternative to talent" (wtf?) or said the magic words "you are smarter than me". They correlated too well with "stupid ideas I knew (or quickly checked) to be wrong". Nowadays I'm trying to fish for useful information even in messages which push my bullshit-o-meter out of scale, but it takes work. If you want to maximize your chance of being treated seriously, stick to constructive arguments about the problem at hand, not some generic unfalsifiable wisdom.
  - lilbobbytables 11y ago
    The reason for that way of phrasing is because it appeals to ego. If you want someone to do something, particularly someone with a known ego, then this is an effective way to get them to listen to you and not dismiss you. Of course, there's a fine line between stroking and patronizing, though.
    - qb45 11y ago
      No, it's a trap. It works until you get to those with really big egos who take pride in dismantling such tricks and gaming others by pretending to fall for their games. These need higher levels of gaming. But in the end, if you truly think that something is a good idea for everyone involved, just explain why.
  - 11y ago
Vivtek 11y ago
Possibly Torvalds can learn from good advice, then?
st3v3r 11y ago
Did it? Or was this part of a wakeup call that Torvalds needed to change things? If this exchange, or a similar one, had not taken place, would things be the way they are today? Or would the predictions of this email have come to fruition?

gpvos 11y ago

Yeah, that's me. Even sailed through all years of university with high marks without having to do much. Until the graduation project, which became an utter failure. Ouch.

crazypyro 11y ago

I managed to get through college keeping the same crappy (read: None) study habits as in high school, but I've always struggled with gaining the work ethic to actually work on side projects I'm interested in instead of coming home from work and playing video games all night or other vices. I've almost gained a secret terror inside myself that I am just not the type of person to have a strong enough work ethic to get into the habit of developing in my free time and its been difficult for me to self motivate, even though once I get started, I tend to enjoy programming outside of work. I get all my work done quickly and efficiently at my job, but I almost wish that I didn't have a high natural aptitude so I would have had a strong necessity to gain these skills for my personal life.

ashark 11y ago
Wow, are you me? I suspect that if I were even a little dumber (and mind you: I'm bright, but not that bright, ya know?) I'd probably be homeless instead of doing pretty damn well as a developer. Then again, maybe I'd be better motivated if couldn't achieve 7-8/10 results on a 5/10 level of effort. Only trouble is when I need to hit 9 or 10 on a deadline... Weird thing is, I have a phenomenal work ethic on projects that involve physical labor, and not just the purely mindless kind, provided I'm not the only one working on the project—if it's solely up to me to start it and follow through on my own, it won't happen until I have one of my "I feel like I can conquer the world!" days when I inexplicably feel full of energy and confidence and motivation, and I only get those a handful of times a year. Anyway, point is, that tells me it's not some pervasive defect in my very being. I can have a great work ethic, without even trying, really, under the right circumstances, and I feel good when I do—I don't work grudgingly in those cases. Curious if you've observed similar things in yourself. As for modifying my behavior and fighting laziness: I've found I've gotten a bit better at this naturally as I've grown older (now early 30s) and sometimes actually win the battle of wills with myself, but my main insight has been that if I'm serious about something I must engineer my environment for success. Sorry to say it, but if other things are taking up time you want to spend on something else, your best solution may be to mercilessly eliminate distractions as you find them while also making it easier to choose to do the things you wish you would do by putting the tools and materials you need (if any) somewhere convenient. Like, sell-your-gaming-computer/consoles—pretty extreme. Or at least put them somewhere really out of the way. Maybe find some way to unplug it all and stick it in a closet, and always put it back when you're done. It's tough, but it works. Given this discovery, I dream of a world where I can live in one house engineered for learning and productivity most of the time and another with all the distractions I enjoy the rest of the time. If only houses weren't so expensive, heh. Short of that, you can commit to only engaging in your distractions in the best possible way. "I can watch movies or TV or play video games, but only ones of high artistic merit or great significance". "If I want to switch windows away from work and read crap on my laptop, that 'crap' must be a classic from Project Gutenberg." "If I pull out my phone for no immediate purpose, the only thing I can do is run through flash cards, or Duolingo". That kind of thing. It's usually harder (though far from impossible) to over indulge with restrictions like that in place, provided you can stick to it—such media is chewier, less addictive. Doesn't make you feel as bad afterward. Steak and asparagus versus cotton candy. For my part, HN will probably have to go soon, and I may start unplugging my Internet a few days a week. I'll have to experiment with the latter, we'll see how it goes.