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This kind of toxic snarkism fueled by fratboy within insecure adults produce toxic working culture. Like literally shitting on anything the other person says or

This kind of toxic snarkism fueled by fratboy within insecure adults produce toxic working culture. Like literally shitting on anything the other person says or does, makes a pretty tough environment to work together.

rjknight 11y ago
Sadly, "toxic", "fratboy" and "insecure" are a long way from being constructive criticism either.
- lmilcin 11y ago
  I would +1 as much as possible if I could. I would also point that people focus on snarky comments but forget how much value the commenters bring. If you can't equal that just shut up and listen.
  - rjknight 11y ago
    "Toxic" is a particular bugbear of mine. I often see references to toxic individuals, or toxic cultures, which seem to use the word as a way of avoiding having to explain what is disagreeable about these individuals or cultures. GP is arguing that toxic individuals make toxic cultures, which is almost tautological and doesn't really explain very much about why this is a bad thing. If the Linux kernel is "toxic" then it would appear that toxicity is no barrier to success in terms of adoption, or benefit to humanity in terms of the quantity of free software distributed to the world. This doesn't appear to make sense, possibly because "toxic" just isn't a great metaphor for whatever GP wants to describe.
    - jorgecurio 11y ago
      If people refer to individuals as toxic, then there is high chance they really are toxic to teh team. It's devastating when these type of high egoistical engineers just cannot find any civilized debate. There's a reason why women are leaving tech in droves and why there aren't as many African or Latino engineers. The very people who are toxic are often blind to the fact themselves. How many more fine African American engineers being driven out because they couldn't bear the micro-aggression from caucasian workers?
hellofunk 11y ago
I think you are looking for a different website, called reddit.
- golergka 11y ago
  Tumblr or Twitter, probably.
- sweezyjeezy 11y ago
  Not helpful to respond to name-calling with more name-calling.
  - drjesusphd 11y ago
    Do you know what name-calling means?
    - hellofunk 11y ago
      I am compelled to agree that I did not call anyone by any names.
      - jorgecurio 11y ago
        You just serve as an example of what I mean by 'toxic' behavior. You shouldn't be browsing reddit or tumblr by any means when you are working.
        hellofunk 11y ago
        Hopefully, you are recognizing your own contributions to this thread as toxic.
      - st3v3r 11y ago
        No, but you didn't do much better.
ktRolster 11y ago
It didn't seem very toxic to me, ESR seemed very respectful of Linus. Here are some things he said about him: > You are a brilliant implementor, more able than me > the best one in the Unix tradition since Ken Thompson himself > genius that you are > You're our chosen benevolent dictator and maybe the second coming of Ken > we respect you and like you If someone said things like that about me, I would be very, very happy.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Really? Because I'd just think they're brown-nosing me in order to get something they want.
lumpypua 11y ago
I really dislike the sensitivity to negative feedback that has become more common over the past ten years. It used to be possible to communicate that someone's behavior is harmful without being accused of literally shitting on them. ESR's email conveys strong negative feedback—as Linus needed—and in the most deeply respectful and complimentary way I've ever seen in an "email rant". Especially from ESR lol. It's very clear that he means it from a heartfelt place and intends it to be productive. If you read that email and feel snark from it, that's projection on your part, and it speaks to an uncomfortability with criticism in your world view. You might find life happier if you see that people give negative feedback not to shit on you or snark, but because they care and want to see you succeed.
- giancarlostoro 11y ago
  It's really hard to give any kind of critique that benefits someone without them and everyone around them being offended. I always try to give advise about what should be done instead of what is currently being done when I find someone's done something highly inconvenient, sadly a lot of people take my comments as "pooping" on them. It is not easy trying to help people who think they're fully entitled to be higher than you no matter what. They would be too good if they did receive feedback for self-improvement though I suppose? :)
  - humanrebar 11y ago
    > It's really hard to give any kind of critique that benefits someone without them and everyone around them being offended. These days, now that people define themselves, people will have their identities wrapped up in the things they make and do. In that case, I'm not sure there's a simple way to keep things from getting personal. That's a job for a rabbi, priest, pastor, mentor, or counselor, not a boss or coworker. See also: discussing politics, money, diet, weight, etc. And, yes, I'm disappointed to come to that conclusion. It seems to mean that we have to continually "handle", patronize, and manipulate people for the greater good. I'd rather treat everyone with respect and transparency. I also think I'm not particularly good at dissembling.
  - jorgecurio 11y ago
douche 11y ago
I find it hilarious that people have hit on this meme of programmers being fratboys.
bitwize 11y ago
Don't throw around the word "toxic" unless you are sure it is the case that the behavior in question is toxic -- and not that you are simply allergic. Eric wasn't shitting on Linus. He was damning with high praise -- telling him that he was so damned smart, eventually it would bite him in the ass unless he adopted practices that normal programmers needed just to manage. Were I to receive such a message I would feel simultaneously chuffed and challenged. Anyway, Linus could take it -- he's certainly dished out worse. Tumblrina culture has made it taboo to actually criticize anyone with stern words -- unless you are calling them out for perceived racism, sexism, or some other breach of political orthodoxy.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  ESR toxifies any community of which he is a part.
- jorgecurio 11y ago
  Yeah it is toxic. You can tell he's being sarcastic by praising Dear Leader. Just read back on the mailing list and you will find plenty of back and forth that quickly gets out of control. You don't even need to venture out far to find this kind of toxic culture in SV. So, criticizing people based on sex, race, and politics shouldn't be perceived as taboo? We blame Marissa for buying Tumblr? What kind of logic is that?

rjknight 11y ago

Sadly, "toxic", "fratboy" and "insecure" are a long way from being constructive criticism either.

lmilcin 11y ago
I would +1 as much as possible if I could. I would also point that people focus on snarky comments but forget how much value the commenters bring. If you can't equal that just shut up and listen.
- rjknight 11y ago
  "Toxic" is a particular bugbear of mine. I often see references to toxic individuals, or toxic cultures, which seem to use the word as a way of avoiding having to explain what is disagreeable about these individuals or cultures. GP is arguing that toxic individuals make toxic cultures, which is almost tautological and doesn't really explain very much about why this is a bad thing. If the Linux kernel is "toxic" then it would appear that toxicity is no barrier to success in terms of adoption, or benefit to humanity in terms of the quantity of free software distributed to the world. This doesn't appear to make sense, possibly because "toxic" just isn't a great metaphor for whatever GP wants to describe.
  - jorgecurio 11y ago
    If people refer to individuals as toxic, then there is high chance they really are toxic to teh team. It's devastating when these type of high egoistical engineers just cannot find any civilized debate. There's a reason why women are leaving tech in droves and why there aren't as many African or Latino engineers. The very people who are toxic are often blind to the fact themselves. How many more fine African American engineers being driven out because they couldn't bear the micro-aggression from caucasian workers?

hellofunk 11y ago

I think you are looking for a different website, called reddit.

golergka 11y ago
Tumblr or Twitter, probably.
sweezyjeezy 11y ago
Not helpful to respond to name-calling with more name-calling.
- drjesusphd 11y ago
  Do you know what name-calling means?
  - hellofunk 11y ago
    I am compelled to agree that I did not call anyone by any names.
    - jorgecurio 11y ago
      You just serve as an example of what I mean by 'toxic' behavior. You shouldn't be browsing reddit or tumblr by any means when you are working.
      - hellofunk 11y ago
        Hopefully, you are recognizing your own contributions to this thread as toxic.
    - st3v3r 11y ago
      No, but you didn't do much better.

ktRolster 11y ago

It didn't seem very toxic to me, ESR seemed very respectful of Linus. Here are some things he said about him: > You are a brilliant implementor, more able than me > the best one in the Unix tradition since Ken Thompson himself > genius that you are > You're our chosen benevolent dictator and maybe the second coming of Ken > we respect you and like you If someone said things like that about me, I would be very, very happy.

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
Really? Because I'd just think they're brown-nosing me in order to get something they want.

lumpypua 11y ago

I really dislike the sensitivity to negative feedback that has become more common over the past ten years. It used to be possible to communicate that someone's behavior is harmful without being accused of literally shitting on them. ESR's email conveys strong negative feedback—as Linus needed—and in the most deeply respectful and complimentary way I've ever seen in an "email rant". Especially from ESR lol. It's very clear that he means it from a heartfelt place and intends it to be productive. If you read that email and feel snark from it, that's projection on your part, and it speaks to an uncomfortability with criticism in your world view. You might find life happier if you see that people give negative feedback not to shit on you or snark, but because they care and want to see you succeed.

giancarlostoro 11y ago
It's really hard to give any kind of critique that benefits someone without them and everyone around them being offended. I always try to give advise about what should be done instead of what is currently being done when I find someone's done something highly inconvenient, sadly a lot of people take my comments as "pooping" on them. It is not easy trying to help people who think they're fully entitled to be higher than you no matter what. They would be too good if they did receive feedback for self-improvement though I suppose? :)
- humanrebar 11y ago
  > It's really hard to give any kind of critique that benefits someone without them and everyone around them being offended. These days, now that people define themselves, people will have their identities wrapped up in the things they make and do. In that case, I'm not sure there's a simple way to keep things from getting personal. That's a job for a rabbi, priest, pastor, mentor, or counselor, not a boss or coworker. See also: discussing politics, money, diet, weight, etc. And, yes, I'm disappointed to come to that conclusion. It seems to mean that we have to continually "handle", patronize, and manipulate people for the greater good. I'd rather treat everyone with respect and transparency. I also think I'm not particularly good at dissembling.
- jorgecurio 11y ago

douche 11y ago

I find it hilarious that people have hit on this meme of programmers being fratboys.

bitwize 11y ago

Don't throw around the word "toxic" unless you are sure it is the case that the behavior in question is toxic -- and not that you are simply allergic. Eric wasn't shitting on Linus. He was damning with high praise -- telling him that he was so damned smart, eventually it would bite him in the ass unless he adopted practices that normal programmers needed just to manage. Were I to receive such a message I would feel simultaneously chuffed and challenged. Anyway, Linus could take it -- he's certainly dished out worse. Tumblrina culture has made it taboo to actually criticize anyone with stern words -- unless you are calling them out for perceived racism, sexism, or some other breach of political orthodoxy.

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
ESR toxifies any community of which he is a part.
jorgecurio 11y ago
Yeah it is toxic. You can tell he's being sarcastic by praising Dear Leader. Just read back on the mailing list and you will find plenty of back and forth that quickly gets out of control. You don't even need to venture out far to find this kind of toxic culture in SV. So, criticizing people based on sex, race, and politics shouldn't be perceived as taboo? We blame Marissa for buying Tumblr? What kind of logic is that?