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UCLA has published a powerful new image-detection algorithm

102 points by kungfudoi 11y ago

gjem97 11y ago
Can you call it open-source if it has no explicit license and the README contains this? PST function is developed in Jalali Lab at University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA). PST is a spin-off from research on the photonic time stretch technique in Jalali lab at UCLA. More information about the technique can be found in our group website: http://www.photonics.ucla.edu http://www.photonics.ucla.edu This function is provided for research purposes only. A license must be obtained from the University of California, Los Angeles for any commercial applications. The software is protected under a US patent.
- danso 11y ago
  Was just about to post the same thing. Probably not worth even clicking this link or following through to the Github if you really do need a good algorithm but aren't comfortable with doing a clean room implementation.
- dang 11y ago
  Ok, we replaced "open-sourced" with "published" in the title above.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  There's an implied license (of sorts) in the Github ToS: We claim no intellectual property rights over the material you provide to the Service. Your profile and materials uploaded remain yours. However, by setting your pages to be viewed publicly, you agree to allow others to view your Content. By setting your repositories to be viewed publicly, you agree to allow others to view and fork your repositories. I'd assume that forking involves modifications and use, but that's not something I'd want to bet on without a lawyer.
monocasa 11y ago
But no licence given on the github page. Seems like a trap to later sue someone for patent infringement.
- dheera 11y ago
  Give them a break. Most academic researchers don't have any motivation to "trap" people using sneaky tactics like that. Furthermore, a lot of people in academia are pretty oblivious to the nuisances between the mind-boggling variety of software licences out there. I'm not saying it's right to be oblivious, but more than likely some poor sleepless grad student is more worried about his/her thesis, graduating, and getting the whole algorithm published in a journal, having lots of people use it and cite her/him, than trapping and suing people. Doing sneaky stuff on purpose would reflect very poorly on the student, professor, research group, and institution. If this were the work of a startup, I would have a different opinion, but coming out of UCLA, I'd highly, highly, highly doubt they are deliberately trying to trap you. Send them a comment on Github and gently remind them to provide licence information.
  - thebouv 11y ago
    They did provide a license. Research purposes only. Explicit license must be obtained for commercial use directly from UCLA. I don't think it is a trap either. I think it is exactly what their department's legal advisor told them to put on there or is boilerplate they even put in a printed document of the algorithm or any research paper. It doesn't need more than that just because it is open source and it doesn't need a well-known OSS license either. Now, I hope they DO go with a more detailed license that is "more" OSS friendly.
    - dheera 11y ago
      "from UCLA". That might mean the researchers intend to apply for a patent on behalf of the university via their technology licensing office or similar, because most universities don't permit individuals to apply for patents solely in their name for research done using university resources. Whether or not the university actually wants to pursue the patent application it is another story. It's conceivable that they may want to use said patent to spin-off a startup or do something else with it. However, I agree with you that I do not think it is a trap. As a general rule it's very, very bad to be sneaky in academia and once you publish anything it's pretty standard that you should be open about your intentions regarding already-published work.
Isamu 11y ago
The original press release here: http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-researchers-release-open-source-code-for-powerful-image-detection-algorithm http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-researchers-release-o...
malkia 11y ago
"Essentially, a new art-style" :)
donretag 11y ago
It has been a really long time since I have looked at Matlab code, but I am surprised how few lines of codes are required. Must study it further, but it shows that not all tech advances requires lots of coding. In this case, the research was the crucial part.
lotsoflumens 11y ago
It's sad and annoying - another bunch of academics who can't be satisfied with using public research money to benefit the public. They just have to go ahead and patent mathematics too. It's pathetic.
- kristopolous 11y ago
  The crazier thing is that releasing the source code like this, at least to me, is quite unusual. I've read a number of academic papers where I had to email the authors and ask nicely for the source code; much of the time not getting a response. You'd think the academic community would be on the forefront of embracing the new open intellectual movement...
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    The University of California is supposed to be copying and freely publishing all output of their researchers.
  - lotsoflumens 11y ago
    I think that's changing very quickly. It's happening much more now because software is everywhere, and paper publication lags are still months and sometimes years out.
  - paulmd 11y ago
    The problem is that survival and prestige in the academic community is directly related to publications. Also, journals don't accept non-novel research. So helping someone scoop your current or future research directly hurts you. Obviously that's not a good thing, but it's a pretty straightforward response to the circumstances of academic papers. It has all kinds of other side-effects too: salami slicing, non-reproducible results, publication bias, etc.
    - jrock08 11y ago
      Lets, be honest, it's not like academics is the only place this happens. CS labs are essentially small companies (1 CEO, 2-3 senior members, and 5-10 junior members). The only difference is that the company produces papers, producing usable code that you support is actually very hard and takes away from the work that actually matters. I'm actually much less worried about being scooped by releasing my code, and much more worried about having to answer emails asking me how to get the hacked together code to run on their machine or their dataset.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Difwif 11y ago
So this essentially looks like a new edge detection algorithm. I wonder what additional properties it has from some of the more traditional methods.
thisisdave 11y ago
So, it's an edge detector? What makes it better than existing methods?
- jxramos 11y ago
  Good question, there's an interesting link to a wiki page in their matlab function docstring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_stretch_transform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_stretch_transform
  - TTPrograms 11y ago
    My definition of "interesting" for an algorithm would include at least 1 line of the 1 line of math required for implementation.
beerbajay 11y ago
"image detection" isn't a thing. Unless they mean finding subcomponents of images which are themselves images. Which they don't.
dnautics 11y ago
It is literally just an arctangent sigmoid (with appropriate normalization) applied to the fourier transform of the image [0]. The thought that ran through my mind is: "Are you .... kidding me?" [0] https://github.com/JalaliLabUCLA/Image-feature-detection-using-Phase-Stretch-Transform/blob/master/PST.m https://github.com/JalaliLabUCLA/Image-feature-detection-usi... Key lines are line 103/104, some stuff with ffts and iffts surrounding it.
- elcritch 11y ago
  Thanks, that's pretty useful. Next time I'm doing image analysis I'll have try applying a sigmoid transformation in fourier space. Never realized it was this straightforward! BTW, perhaps it'd be handy to list prior art if it's really a redundant patent.
  - dnautics 11y ago
    You don't have to use arctan, either. Probably logistic sigmoid will do just fine, too. I think there's also a low frequency bandpass in this particular implementation. If you think about what that means in Fourier space, why you get the results shown makes a whole lot of sense.
mankash666 11y ago
So instead of wondering how an existing application of edge detection can benefit from this algorithm, HN is discussing the politics of profit in academia? Let's focus HN-ers. How can this new algorithm be used to build a better "mouse trap"?
- mwfunk 11y ago
  If it's currently (or soon to be) patented, then this algorithm can't even be used as a starting point for discussion. Anything that comes from such a discussion would be legally tainted by the patented algorithm. Patenting this renders it utterly useless to anyone but a patent troll, and that is not hyperbole.
  - mwfunk 11y ago
    Put another way: if someone was going to be developing an algorithm that does anything remotely like what this algorithm does, the legal advice that that person's institution would give them would be to not read anything about this particular algorithm. Like, don't even visit this web page or participate in this thread on HN, because doing so exposes a legal attack surface for future litigation. That's how effed up this is, it's inexcusable.
    - mankash666 11y ago
      This new method has zero value, regardless of it's patent status, if it cannot be used to build a better mouse trap. So, let's first see if one can ever use this to enable a superior product first.
iamleppert 11y ago
Looks like your run of the mill edge detection filter lol
andersonfreitas 11y ago
For those who want to play with it and don't have access to MATLAB, I've spent some minutes and ported to Python: https://github.com/andersonfreitas/pst/blob/master/PST.ipynb https://github.com/andersonfreitas/pst/blob/master/PST.ipynb

102 points by kungfudoi 11y ago

Can you call it open-source if it has no explicit license and the README contains this? PST function is developed in Jalali Lab at University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA). PST is a spin-off from research on the photonic time stretch technique in Jalali lab at UCLA. More information about the technique can be found in our group website: http://www.photonics.ucla.edu http://www.photonics.ucla.edu This function is provided for research purposes only. A license must be obtained from the University of California, Los Angeles for any commercial applications. The software is protected under a US patent.

danso 11y ago
Was just about to post the same thing. Probably not worth even clicking this link or following through to the Github if you really do need a good algorithm but aren't comfortable with doing a clean room implementation.
dang 11y ago
Ok, we replaced "open-sourced" with "published" in the title above.
Karunamon 11y ago
There's an implied license (of sorts) in the Github ToS: We claim no intellectual property rights over the material you provide to the Service. Your profile and materials uploaded remain yours. However, by setting your pages to be viewed publicly, you agree to allow others to view your Content. By setting your repositories to be viewed publicly, you agree to allow others to view and fork your repositories. I'd assume that forking involves modifications and use, but that's not something I'd want to bet on without a lawyer.

monocasa 11y ago

But no licence given on the github page. Seems like a trap to later sue someone for patent infringement.

dheera 11y ago
Give them a break. Most academic researchers don't have any motivation to "trap" people using sneaky tactics like that. Furthermore, a lot of people in academia are pretty oblivious to the nuisances between the mind-boggling variety of software licences out there. I'm not saying it's right to be oblivious, but more than likely some poor sleepless grad student is more worried about his/her thesis, graduating, and getting the whole algorithm published in a journal, having lots of people use it and cite her/him, than trapping and suing people. Doing sneaky stuff on purpose would reflect very poorly on the student, professor, research group, and institution. If this were the work of a startup, I would have a different opinion, but coming out of UCLA, I'd highly, highly, highly doubt they are deliberately trying to trap you. Send them a comment on Github and gently remind them to provide licence information.
- thebouv 11y ago
  They did provide a license. Research purposes only. Explicit license must be obtained for commercial use directly from UCLA. I don't think it is a trap either. I think it is exactly what their department's legal advisor told them to put on there or is boilerplate they even put in a printed document of the algorithm or any research paper. It doesn't need more than that just because it is open source and it doesn't need a well-known OSS license either. Now, I hope they DO go with a more detailed license that is "more" OSS friendly.
  - dheera 11y ago
    "from UCLA". That might mean the researchers intend to apply for a patent on behalf of the university via their technology licensing office or similar, because most universities don't permit individuals to apply for patents solely in their name for research done using university resources. Whether or not the university actually wants to pursue the patent application it is another story. It's conceivable that they may want to use said patent to spin-off a startup or do something else with it. However, I agree with you that I do not think it is a trap. As a general rule it's very, very bad to be sneaky in academia and once you publish anything it's pretty standard that you should be open about your intentions regarding already-published work.

Isamu 11y ago

The original press release here: http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-researchers-release-open-source-code-for-powerful-image-detection-algorithm http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-researchers-release-o...

malkia 11y ago

"Essentially, a new art-style" :)

donretag 11y ago

It has been a really long time since I have looked at Matlab code, but I am surprised how few lines of codes are required. Must study it further, but it shows that not all tech advances requires lots of coding. In this case, the research was the crucial part.

lotsoflumens 11y ago

It's sad and annoying - another bunch of academics who can't be satisfied with using public research money to benefit the public. They just have to go ahead and patent mathematics too. It's pathetic.

kristopolous 11y ago
The crazier thing is that releasing the source code like this, at least to me, is quite unusual. I've read a number of academic papers where I had to email the authors and ask nicely for the source code; much of the time not getting a response. You'd think the academic community would be on the forefront of embracing the new open intellectual movement...
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  The University of California is supposed to be copying and freely publishing all output of their researchers.
- lotsoflumens 11y ago
  I think that's changing very quickly. It's happening much more now because software is everywhere, and paper publication lags are still months and sometimes years out.
- paulmd 11y ago
  The problem is that survival and prestige in the academic community is directly related to publications. Also, journals don't accept non-novel research. So helping someone scoop your current or future research directly hurts you. Obviously that's not a good thing, but it's a pretty straightforward response to the circumstances of academic papers. It has all kinds of other side-effects too: salami slicing, non-reproducible results, publication bias, etc.
  - jrock08 11y ago
    Lets, be honest, it's not like academics is the only place this happens. CS labs are essentially small companies (1 CEO, 2-3 senior members, and 5-10 junior members). The only difference is that the company produces papers, producing usable code that you support is actually very hard and takes away from the work that actually matters. I'm actually much less worried about being scooped by releasing my code, and much more worried about having to answer emails asking me how to get the hacked together code to run on their machine or their dataset.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Difwif 11y ago

So this essentially looks like a new edge detection algorithm. I wonder what additional properties it has from some of the more traditional methods.

thisisdave 11y ago

So, it's an edge detector? What makes it better than existing methods?

jxramos 11y ago
Good question, there's an interesting link to a wiki page in their matlab function docstring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_stretch_transform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_stretch_transform
- TTPrograms 11y ago
  My definition of "interesting" for an algorithm would include at least 1 line of the 1 line of math required for implementation.

beerbajay 11y ago

"image detection" isn't a thing. Unless they mean finding subcomponents of images which are themselves images. Which they don't.

dnautics 11y ago

It is literally just an arctangent sigmoid (with appropriate normalization) applied to the fourier transform of the image [0]. The thought that ran through my mind is: "Are you .... kidding me?" [0] https://github.com/JalaliLabUCLA/Image-feature-detection-using-Phase-Stretch-Transform/blob/master/PST.m https://github.com/JalaliLabUCLA/Image-feature-detection-usi... Key lines are line 103/104, some stuff with ffts and iffts surrounding it.

elcritch 11y ago
Thanks, that's pretty useful. Next time I'm doing image analysis I'll have try applying a sigmoid transformation in fourier space. Never realized it was this straightforward! BTW, perhaps it'd be handy to list prior art if it's really a redundant patent.
- dnautics 11y ago
  You don't have to use arctan, either. Probably logistic sigmoid will do just fine, too. I think there's also a low frequency bandpass in this particular implementation. If you think about what that means in Fourier space, why you get the results shown makes a whole lot of sense.

mankash666 11y ago

So instead of wondering how an existing application of edge detection can benefit from this algorithm, HN is discussing the politics of profit in academia? Let's focus HN-ers. How can this new algorithm be used to build a better "mouse trap"?

mwfunk 11y ago
If it's currently (or soon to be) patented, then this algorithm can't even be used as a starting point for discussion. Anything that comes from such a discussion would be legally tainted by the patented algorithm. Patenting this renders it utterly useless to anyone but a patent troll, and that is not hyperbole.
- mwfunk 11y ago
  Put another way: if someone was going to be developing an algorithm that does anything remotely like what this algorithm does, the legal advice that that person's institution would give them would be to not read anything about this particular algorithm. Like, don't even visit this web page or participate in this thread on HN, because doing so exposes a legal attack surface for future litigation. That's how effed up this is, it's inexcusable.
  - mankash666 11y ago
    This new method has zero value, regardless of it's patent status, if it cannot be used to build a better mouse trap. So, let's first see if one can ever use this to enable a superior product first.

iamleppert 11y ago

Looks like your run of the mill edge detection filter lol

andersonfreitas 11y ago

For those who want to play with it and don't have access to MATLAB, I've spent some minutes and ported to Python: https://github.com/andersonfreitas/pst/blob/master/PST.ipynb https://github.com/andersonfreitas/pst/blob/master/PST.ipynb