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I'm an male Ashkenazi Jew. I don't look stereotypically Jewish so I don't claim to fully be able to relate to these women and their experiences but if the start

I'm an male Ashkenazi Jew. I don't look stereotypically Jewish so I don't claim to fully be able to relate to these women and their experiences but if the startup I work for now asked me to accept an award on its behalf because I'm a Jew, I would feel incredibly patronized and would start looking for other work.

jusben1369 11y ago
But let's say you were asked to accept an award on behalf of your company from a group that had a troubled history of anti-semitic sentiment and it was thought that, amongst this group, there were still large swaths of members who held anti-semitic beliefs. Would you feel patronized and start job searching?
- hnamazon123 11y ago
  Yes, if I worked at Ford or at IBM or some other firm with past antisemitic connections I would feel even more patronized. I'm a person, not a prop to be used by a corporation to score social points.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Has some corporation made you feel like you were being used as a "prop" to "score social points"? All the evidence in this story points to the conclusion that these particular people do not feel so used.
    - hnamazon123 11y ago
      Right, so it's interesting to consider why they don't feel used. Considering this was done consciously what is message we are meant to come away with? Is it a) to show the world that black women can be engineers at successful companies? b) to show the world that companies can be successful with black women engineers? c) to show the world that companies are more successful with black women engineers? In each of those cases what are the implications of them not feeling like a prop?
      - tptacek 11y ago
        First, to come closer to the most charitable, least controversial framing of what's happening here, replace (c) with: d) to show the world that companies are more successful when they don't adopt practices that exclude black women engineers? Then, to be fully charitable, replace "black women" with "statistically underrepresented people", or whatever term you feel comes closest to that which will allow us not to pointlessly litigate. Then, I think the answer is (a, b, d). Finally, the simplest, most obvious implication of them not feeling "like a prop" is that they share the objective that their employer has in promoting the idea. The term "prop" is derisive. We don't feel like "props" when we work with other people towards shared goals, even though our work is, directly or indirectly, helping those other people as well.
        hnamazon123 11y ago
        That's a really good point. I suppose I'm cynical when it comes to corporations taking social positions. My first inclination would be to assume that there's an alterior profit motive in terms of the optics as it relates to marketing in addition to the virtue signaling on the part of the leadership - both of them being a result of the influence of identity politics. I suppose that's not exactly a charitable assumption or provable.
        tptacek 11y ago
        I generally agree that companies are going to be inclined to signal social values when those values align with their own interests. But I'm generally happy when the interests of companies line up with what I believe to be the interests of society as a whole. Companies that go out of their way to be environmentally friendly are most often doing that in order to seize a marketing niche. That's a signal sent with a profit motive. But that doesn't bother me; why should it? Like you, I do remain wary of the motives of companies when they send signals about social values. Their actions might not match the signals they're sending, or, having firmly established those social values as part of their "brand", they may cease serving those values altogether. I think it's good to be wary of companies. But I think we should be careful about about letting the social values themselves take flak due solely to that wariness. The ulterior motives of Slack are a small issue. Whichever way you feel about it, diversity is a big issue. Let's not lose the forest for the shrubs. I suspect we may not entirely agree about the merits of the particular social values ("diversity", whatever) at stake here. I believe the underrepresentation of women and African Americans in tech is a major problem. But either way: you seem like a pretty reasonable person, so, thank you for being that way.
  - jusben1369 11y ago
    I think "past" is a bit of a cop out. It has to be current and in the moment to be applicable.
draw_down 11y ago
Well, we don't know who asked who. So that's somewhat speculative My company lost a woman engineer by badgering her about representing the company in terms of diversity. Turns out she just wanted to be an engineer.
splintercell 11y ago
Would you accept an award on behalf of your Red Cross organization for its work in Palestine, purely because you're Jewish and your organization thinks it would be good for other Palestinians to see Jewish people in a humane light?
frozenport 11y ago
Or maybe you would embrace the reasoning behind it. Who here is really strong enough to deny an award?
ck2 11y ago
Do you really not get that VISIBILITY is the first step to change and things improving? You think minorities are treated the same by society, law enforcement and employers? It's all in how they asked them, especially if they were given a real choice and allowed to express their ideas/concerns. This is why "politically correct" exists in the first place. It forces people to practice best behavior even before they realize what they are doing/saying is wrong, until they "get it". At one point it was completely okay to employ only white males. Now it's not.
- nkurz 11y ago
  Do you really not get that VISIBILITY is the first step to change and things improving? I think you've focused on the right question: is highlighting superficial differences now the best way to reduce discrimination against superficial differences in the future? I don't find it obviously true, but I'm open the the possibility that it is. What's convinced you that it's the best approach? What would convince you that it's not?
  - ck2 11y ago
    In a perfect country where there was wasn't 100 years of slavery, if women had the right to vote from the start, equal pay, etc. sure, you would scratch your head at showcasing minorities. But now our country has "original sin". Countering the damage that has been done by the generational, institutional holding back of minorities takes great effort. There are far too many people who think there are no women who code, now add minorities to the mix. So yes, right now we have to highlight such achievements. Someday it won't be necessary.
fleeting_wind 11y ago
Would you feel differently if all young Jewish boys didn't know they could go into a tech field because there were no Jews or men in tech?
- splintercell 11y ago
  No offense but that's a stupid question. There are no Indian NFL players, do Indians think it's because they CAN'T get into NFL or do they think that Indians just don't like to play sports? I dare you to ask any Indian-American you know this question.
- hnamazon123 11y ago
  That's actually a really interesting angle. I didn't start programming when I was 10 because there are Jews in tech. I never associated my race or ethnicity with any sort of permission to do anything. The thought never crossed my mind. I didn't grow up in a racialized community even though, yes, I was one of few Jews in the town I grew up in. I appreciate this question because it gives further evidence that identity politics is detrimental to minorities and society at large.
tptacek 11y ago
Well, when a firm pressures you into accepting an unwelcome award because you're Jewish, you can leave that job and write up your story. Virtually everyone on HN, regardless of their political persuasions, will sympathize with that story. Here we have a story about four engineers who seem to be extremely happy to be accepting an award on behalf of Slack, so your concern over how you would feel if you were pressured to take the kind of award you're considering seems entirely synthetic.
- hnamazon123 11y ago
  In this scenario I'm not pressured, just asked with the clear understanding that I'm being asked because of my ethnicity. As I said, I can't speak to the experiences and perspectives of these women because the circumstances are very different. On this topic of identity politics in the workplace I'm offering my perspective as a quasi-minority.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Again: the people we're discussing in this story, as opposed to the one you've synthesized, appear to be very happy to be collecting this award on Slack's behalf. When you're put in any situation in which you're somehow singled out because of your background, you should, if you feel it warranted, quit and then write the story up. Then we can discuss your concern in a context where it actually makes sense. I was not being sarcastic: if that ever happens to you, I feel like most people on this site will be very sympathetic to your problem. There is an old message board term for the practice of synthesizing a concern and imputing it to someone else for the purpose of argumentation. It isn't a positive term.
    - hnamazon123 11y ago
      I think understand your perspective. I just disagree with your contention that this story should be taken at face value or understood in a narrow context. I see this story as part of a more broad discussion about identity politics so I think what I wrote is within the purview of that discussion.
ddw 11y ago
It's strange that you automatically assumed the four women were being patrionized.
- mkopinsky 11y ago
  He didn't assume such a thing. He stated how he personally would feel in such a situation. And yes, generalizing from one's own experiences and emotions is one valid way of interpolating how others would react in a similar situation.

jusben1369 11y ago

But let's say you were asked to accept an award on behalf of your company from a group that had a troubled history of anti-semitic sentiment and it was thought that, amongst this group, there were still large swaths of members who held anti-semitic beliefs. Would you feel patronized and start job searching?

hnamazon123 11y ago
Yes, if I worked at Ford or at IBM or some other firm with past antisemitic connections I would feel even more patronized. I'm a person, not a prop to be used by a corporation to score social points.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Has some corporation made you feel like you were being used as a "prop" to "score social points"? All the evidence in this story points to the conclusion that these particular people do not feel so used.
  - hnamazon123 11y ago
    Right, so it's interesting to consider why they don't feel used. Considering this was done consciously what is message we are meant to come away with? Is it a) to show the world that black women can be engineers at successful companies? b) to show the world that companies can be successful with black women engineers? c) to show the world that companies are more successful with black women engineers? In each of those cases what are the implications of them not feeling like a prop?
    - tptacek 11y ago
      First, to come closer to the most charitable, least controversial framing of what's happening here, replace (c) with: d) to show the world that companies are more successful when they don't adopt practices that exclude black women engineers? Then, to be fully charitable, replace "black women" with "statistically underrepresented people", or whatever term you feel comes closest to that which will allow us not to pointlessly litigate. Then, I think the answer is (a, b, d). Finally, the simplest, most obvious implication of them not feeling "like a prop" is that they share the objective that their employer has in promoting the idea. The term "prop" is derisive. We don't feel like "props" when we work with other people towards shared goals, even though our work is, directly or indirectly, helping those other people as well.
      - hnamazon123 11y ago
        That's a really good point. I suppose I'm cynical when it comes to corporations taking social positions. My first inclination would be to assume that there's an alterior profit motive in terms of the optics as it relates to marketing in addition to the virtue signaling on the part of the leadership - both of them being a result of the influence of identity politics. I suppose that's not exactly a charitable assumption or provable.
        tptacek 11y ago
        I generally agree that companies are going to be inclined to signal social values when those values align with their own interests. But I'm generally happy when the interests of companies line up with what I believe to be the interests of society as a whole. Companies that go out of their way to be environmentally friendly are most often doing that in order to seize a marketing niche. That's a signal sent with a profit motive. But that doesn't bother me; why should it? Like you, I do remain wary of the motives of companies when they send signals about social values. Their actions might not match the signals they're sending, or, having firmly established those social values as part of their "brand", they may cease serving those values altogether. I think it's good to be wary of companies. But I think we should be careful about about letting the social values themselves take flak due solely to that wariness. The ulterior motives of Slack are a small issue. Whichever way you feel about it, diversity is a big issue. Let's not lose the forest for the shrubs. I suspect we may not entirely agree about the merits of the particular social values ("diversity", whatever) at stake here. I believe the underrepresentation of women and African Americans in tech is a major problem. But either way: you seem like a pretty reasonable person, so, thank you for being that way.
- jusben1369 11y ago
  I think "past" is a bit of a cop out. It has to be current and in the moment to be applicable.

draw_down 11y ago

Well, we don't know who asked who. So that's somewhat speculative My company lost a woman engineer by badgering her about representing the company in terms of diversity. Turns out she just wanted to be an engineer.

splintercell 11y ago

Would you accept an award on behalf of your Red Cross organization for its work in Palestine, purely because you're Jewish and your organization thinks it would be good for other Palestinians to see Jewish people in a humane light?

frozenport 11y ago

Or maybe you would embrace the reasoning behind it. Who here is really strong enough to deny an award?

ck2 11y ago

Do you really not get that VISIBILITY is the first step to change and things improving? You think minorities are treated the same by society, law enforcement and employers? It's all in how they asked them, especially if they were given a real choice and allowed to express their ideas/concerns. This is why "politically correct" exists in the first place. It forces people to practice best behavior even before they realize what they are doing/saying is wrong, until they "get it". At one point it was completely okay to employ only white males. Now it's not.

nkurz 11y ago
Do you really not get that VISIBILITY is the first step to change and things improving? I think you've focused on the right question: is highlighting superficial differences now the best way to reduce discrimination against superficial differences in the future? I don't find it obviously true, but I'm open the the possibility that it is. What's convinced you that it's the best approach? What would convince you that it's not?
- ck2 11y ago
  In a perfect country where there was wasn't 100 years of slavery, if women had the right to vote from the start, equal pay, etc. sure, you would scratch your head at showcasing minorities. But now our country has "original sin". Countering the damage that has been done by the generational, institutional holding back of minorities takes great effort. There are far too many people who think there are no women who code, now add minorities to the mix. So yes, right now we have to highlight such achievements. Someday it won't be necessary.

fleeting_wind 11y ago

Would you feel differently if all young Jewish boys didn't know they could go into a tech field because there were no Jews or men in tech?

splintercell 11y ago
No offense but that's a stupid question. There are no Indian NFL players, do Indians think it's because they CAN'T get into NFL or do they think that Indians just don't like to play sports? I dare you to ask any Indian-American you know this question.
hnamazon123 11y ago
That's actually a really interesting angle. I didn't start programming when I was 10 because there are Jews in tech. I never associated my race or ethnicity with any sort of permission to do anything. The thought never crossed my mind. I didn't grow up in a racialized community even though, yes, I was one of few Jews in the town I grew up in. I appreciate this question because it gives further evidence that identity politics is detrimental to minorities and society at large.

tptacek 11y ago

Well, when a firm pressures you into accepting an unwelcome award because you're Jewish, you can leave that job and write up your story. Virtually everyone on HN, regardless of their political persuasions, will sympathize with that story. Here we have a story about four engineers who seem to be extremely happy to be accepting an award on behalf of Slack, so your concern over how you would feel if you were pressured to take the kind of award you're considering seems entirely synthetic.

hnamazon123 11y ago
In this scenario I'm not pressured, just asked with the clear understanding that I'm being asked because of my ethnicity. As I said, I can't speak to the experiences and perspectives of these women because the circumstances are very different. On this topic of identity politics in the workplace I'm offering my perspective as a quasi-minority.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Again: the people we're discussing in this story, as opposed to the one you've synthesized, appear to be very happy to be collecting this award on Slack's behalf. When you're put in any situation in which you're somehow singled out because of your background, you should, if you feel it warranted, quit and then write the story up. Then we can discuss your concern in a context where it actually makes sense. I was not being sarcastic: if that ever happens to you, I feel like most people on this site will be very sympathetic to your problem. There is an old message board term for the practice of synthesizing a concern and imputing it to someone else for the purpose of argumentation. It isn't a positive term.
  - hnamazon123 11y ago
    I think understand your perspective. I just disagree with your contention that this story should be taken at face value or understood in a narrow context. I see this story as part of a more broad discussion about identity politics so I think what I wrote is within the purview of that discussion.

ddw 11y ago

It's strange that you automatically assumed the four women were being patrionized.

mkopinsky 11y ago
He didn't assume such a thing. He stated how he personally would feel in such a situation. And yes, generalizing from one's own experiences and emotions is one valid way of interpolating how others would react in a similar situation.