5 ms·

God that statement made me roll my eyes. It felt so condescending. Let's totally forget you know, us Asians (people of color and a visible minority in the West

by colmvp 11y ago

God that statement made me roll my eyes. It felt so condescending. Let's totally forget you know, us Asians (people of color and a visible minority in the West) who contribute to tech companies at a high rate and who also have had to overcome racism, stereotypes, and artificial ceilings. Oh wait, we don't count when it comes to determining what contributes to diversity! Somewhere in the 20th and 21st century, our skin colour turned white and we're no different than white people.

Swizec 11y ago
> Somehow between the 20th and 21st century, our skin colour turned white and we're no different than white people. Fun fact: in the beginning of the 20th century, you weren't white if you were Irish or Italian. "White" in the US has little to do with skin colour. It's more of a social construct. > The definition of white has changed significantly over the course of American history. Even among Europeans those not considered white at some point in American history include Southern Europeans (Italian, Spaniard, Greek, Portuguese, etc.), Irish people and Central Europeans (Germans, Poles) and Eastern Europeans (Russians) but mostly notably[citation needed] Polish people due to the Partitions of Poland.[21][22] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans#Historical_and_present_definitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans#Historical_and...
- tptacek 11y ago
  Which is, of course, the problem with "white pride": "white" really just means "not an other". Italian Pride, Irish Pride, Polish Pride, all relatively noncontroversial. "White Pride", however, really means "proud of not being one of those others".
smt88 11y ago
I'm South Asian. Asians certainly do deal with racism, but the stereotypes and artificial ceilings doesn't sound right to me. Where do you feel that any non-Muslim Asian minority is dealing with those things today? The fact is that being black is the US is very different from being anything else. Black people were slaves from the 1500s to the 1800s, and the US government was actively discriminating against black people (and preventing them from building family wealth) as recently as the 1960s. That simply isn't true for Asians. I recently met someone who went to Stanford and was arguing that black people are genetically less intelligent than white people, even though the entire concept of race has no objective reality. I guarantee you don't have to deal with anything like that. I could think of a million other examples.
- gedy 11y ago
  > That simply isn't true for Asians. Maybe not until the 1960s, but Asians were treated very badly as well: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/123989795964998211/ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/123989795964998211/
- colmvp 11y ago
  Steven Yeun of Walking Dead talked about having to reject roles that specifically stereotyped Asians. Imagine doing that as an Asian man who traditionally finds it hard to find roles in the first place. Or look at the dearth of the lead roles for Asian men. Read this article from Aziz Ansari: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/arts/television/aziz-ansari-on-acting-race-and-hollywood.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/arts/television/aziz-ansar... And given the disparity in online dating stats and interracial marriage stats, you'd be hard pressed to tell me that stereotypes have zero bearing on the effect on Asian men (and Black women). For ceilings, there are numerous studies and articles outlining how Asians may enter companies as employees but don't advance nearly as high as other ethnicities, being absent from some of the highest levels of the company. Consider the number of tech workers who are Asian and then compare it to the number of Asians who end up moving up to executive levels. Is it proportional? Not at all. Of course, critics will just say it's because of Asians not having the right skills. Strange. Couldn't we say the same about the lack of Blacks/Hispanics/women in tech? Look also into studies comparing the number of Asian lawyers compared to Asian judges. It's also not proportional. Of course, we can also look at stats that show Asians often have to perform higher than other ethnicities to garner entrances into colleges. How is that not a penalty to their race? The argument of Asians don't suffer as much as Blacks therefore don't have it bad is trite and non-constructive. Black and Hispanic vote counts much more in the political narrative than Asians. Even in my local city which has close to 40% Asians, our representation in the city council only has about 5-10% Asians council members. If you say something racist against a black person, like Donald Sterling or Paula Deen, you could lose a LOT. Yet if you say something racist against an Asian person on TV, you're barely forced to make a mea culpa.
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  >the entire concept of race has no objective reality Come off it. Race is an objective reality. Aside from the visually obvious large difference(s) in pigmentation of the skin, there are other hard biological differentiators, like facial shape, the frequency of certain diseases, and many others. Taking the anti-racism movement into hard, blatant denialism is beyond ridiculous and will only create more people like the friend you're trying to avoid. When there's no one in the middle to temper and explain inconvenient objective realities, people feel like their only option is to go to the extreme that seems to align with their experiences. That hardening of extremity is really bad for everyone.
throwaway45824 11y ago
when the stereotype is "you're good at math and science" overcoming the stereotype would mean proving that you're not good at math and science: i.e. you don't need to overcome that stereotype. I don't need to overcome any stereotypes about tall people being successful! (Even though my height is good.) That would mean "no.... see I'm totally unsuccessful, I've had to overcome a lot of prejudice owing to my height but I've done it." I'm smart and I'm white. If I were Asian it would be objectively easier for me to get funded in silicon valley. If I were black it would be objectively harder. (All other things being equal, i.e. if tomorrow I woke up with just those phenotype physical features and skin color but remained completely the same in every other way.) This is just a physical fact, it's an aspect of reality. I don't know how else to put this. If tomorrow I woke up looking like a woman, I'd be more likely to be raped in the following 900 days, because women are more likely to be raped. If tomorrow I woke up and was Asian I'd be more likely to be funded in the following 900 days, because asians are more likely to be funded. It's just a simple fact. Even though it's a simple fact that shouldn't be too controversial I obviously feel some risk that this will blow up, hence the throwaway. Please interpret this comment liberally, but if multiple people absolutely must feel the need to downvote it I can remove it. I wouldn't mind being asian whenever it comes to being judged in tech. It would help me achieve my goals. I mean that absolutely literally: I wouldn't mind if the people judging me in tech thought I was asian. It would help me.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
vonklaus 11y ago
My point is that we need more people in tech, and we do that by leveling the playing field at the education level. Asians studied sciences disproportionately relative to their representation within the us population. * I don't think we should use demographics as a ruler for hiring. * I don't think we should stop hiring (or start firing) Asians because they are overrepresented. > Let's totally forget you know, us Asians (people of color and a visible minority in the West) who contribute to tech companies at a high rate and who also have had to overcome racism, stereotypes, and artificial ceilings. I feel like you think this is some sort of rebuttal to me, but I find us saying the same thing. Many Asians studied sciences, and at disproportionate amounts relative to their population size. So now there are more Asians in desirable professional positions. I personally find it super offensive when someone conflates success with 'whiteness'. The most salient example being the "You talk like you're white" statements often delivered as a compliment. I think, as I stated above, building a pipeline is the most important thing. Not simply using demographics as a yardstick and removing the percentage of Asians above a line. Also if we use a yardstick it should be family income or the median income in districts to capture people who are disadvantaged. This will have the affect of boosting disenfranchised populations like hispanics and blacks while capturing other races and segments who are also disadvantaged. While I think hiring bias exists it is likely fading. The nice affect of promoting more education and skill at lower levels is that we will create more opportunities for nontraditional segments to start companies and set their own cultures. Many people in the industry have instead focused on education instead of directly building companies because they feel a sense of need to help people overcome the hurdles it takes to become skilled (economic, demographic, cultural, etc). I look forward to when they don't have to do that because mechanisms will be in place to serve these underserved places and people, and those entrepreneurs and engineers can get back to engineering.

by colmvp 11y ago

Swizec 11y ago

> Somehow between the 20th and 21st century, our skin colour turned white and we're no different than white people. Fun fact: in the beginning of the 20th century, you weren't white if you were Irish or Italian. "White" in the US has little to do with skin colour. It's more of a social construct. > The definition of white has changed significantly over the course of American history. Even among Europeans those not considered white at some point in American history include Southern Europeans (Italian, Spaniard, Greek, Portuguese, etc.), Irish people and Central Europeans (Germans, Poles) and Eastern Europeans (Russians) but mostly notably[citation needed] Polish people due to the Partitions of Poland.[21][22] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans#Historical_and_present_definitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans#Historical_and...

tptacek 11y ago
Which is, of course, the problem with "white pride": "white" really just means "not an other". Italian Pride, Irish Pride, Polish Pride, all relatively noncontroversial. "White Pride", however, really means "proud of not being one of those others".

smt88 11y ago

I'm South Asian. Asians certainly do deal with racism, but the stereotypes and artificial ceilings doesn't sound right to me. Where do you feel that any non-Muslim Asian minority is dealing with those things today? The fact is that being black is the US is very different from being anything else. Black people were slaves from the 1500s to the 1800s, and the US government was actively discriminating against black people (and preventing them from building family wealth) as recently as the 1960s. That simply isn't true for Asians. I recently met someone who went to Stanford and was arguing that black people are genetically less intelligent than white people, even though the entire concept of race has no objective reality. I guarantee you don't have to deal with anything like that. I could think of a million other examples.

gedy 11y ago
> That simply isn't true for Asians. Maybe not until the 1960s, but Asians were treated very badly as well: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/123989795964998211/ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/123989795964998211/
colmvp 11y ago
Steven Yeun of Walking Dead talked about having to reject roles that specifically stereotyped Asians. Imagine doing that as an Asian man who traditionally finds it hard to find roles in the first place. Or look at the dearth of the lead roles for Asian men. Read this article from Aziz Ansari: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/arts/television/aziz-ansari-on-acting-race-and-hollywood.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/arts/television/aziz-ansar... And given the disparity in online dating stats and interracial marriage stats, you'd be hard pressed to tell me that stereotypes have zero bearing on the effect on Asian men (and Black women). For ceilings, there are numerous studies and articles outlining how Asians may enter companies as employees but don't advance nearly as high as other ethnicities, being absent from some of the highest levels of the company. Consider the number of tech workers who are Asian and then compare it to the number of Asians who end up moving up to executive levels. Is it proportional? Not at all. Of course, critics will just say it's because of Asians not having the right skills. Strange. Couldn't we say the same about the lack of Blacks/Hispanics/women in tech? Look also into studies comparing the number of Asian lawyers compared to Asian judges. It's also not proportional. Of course, we can also look at stats that show Asians often have to perform higher than other ethnicities to garner entrances into colleges. How is that not a penalty to their race? The argument of Asians don't suffer as much as Blacks therefore don't have it bad is trite and non-constructive. Black and Hispanic vote counts much more in the political narrative than Asians. Even in my local city which has close to 40% Asians, our representation in the city council only has about 5-10% Asians council members. If you say something racist against a black person, like Donald Sterling or Paula Deen, you could lose a LOT. Yet if you say something racist against an Asian person on TV, you're barely forced to make a mea culpa.
cookiecaper 11y ago
>the entire concept of race has no objective reality Come off it. Race is an objective reality. Aside from the visually obvious large difference(s) in pigmentation of the skin, there are other hard biological differentiators, like facial shape, the frequency of certain diseases, and many others. Taking the anti-racism movement into hard, blatant denialism is beyond ridiculous and will only create more people like the friend you're trying to avoid. When there's no one in the middle to temper and explain inconvenient objective realities, people feel like their only option is to go to the extreme that seems to align with their experiences. That hardening of extremity is really bad for everyone.

throwaway45824 11y ago

when the stereotype is "you're good at math and science" overcoming the stereotype would mean proving that you're not good at math and science: i.e. you don't need to overcome that stereotype. I don't need to overcome any stereotypes about tall people being successful! (Even though my height is good.) That would mean "no.... see I'm totally unsuccessful, I've had to overcome a lot of prejudice owing to my height but I've done it." I'm smart and I'm white. If I were Asian it would be objectively easier for me to get funded in silicon valley. If I were black it would be objectively harder. (All other things being equal, i.e. if tomorrow I woke up with just those phenotype physical features and skin color but remained completely the same in every other way.) This is just a physical fact, it's an aspect of reality. I don't know how else to put this. If tomorrow I woke up looking like a woman, I'd be more likely to be raped in the following 900 days, because women are more likely to be raped. If tomorrow I woke up and was Asian I'd be more likely to be funded in the following 900 days, because asians are more likely to be funded. It's just a simple fact. Even though it's a simple fact that shouldn't be too controversial I obviously feel some risk that this will blow up, hence the throwaway. Please interpret this comment liberally, but if multiple people absolutely must feel the need to downvote it I can remove it. I wouldn't mind being asian whenever it comes to being judged in tech. It would help me achieve my goals. I mean that absolutely literally: I wouldn't mind if the people judging me in tech thought I was asian. It would help me.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

vonklaus 11y ago

My point is that we need more people in tech, and we do that by leveling the playing field at the education level. Asians studied sciences disproportionately relative to their representation within the us population. * I don't think we should use demographics as a ruler for hiring. * I don't think we should stop hiring (or start firing) Asians because they are overrepresented. > Let's totally forget you know, us Asians (people of color and a visible minority in the West) who contribute to tech companies at a high rate and who also have had to overcome racism, stereotypes, and artificial ceilings. I feel like you think this is some sort of rebuttal to me, but I find us saying the same thing. Many Asians studied sciences, and at disproportionate amounts relative to their population size. So now there are more Asians in desirable professional positions. I personally find it super offensive when someone conflates success with 'whiteness'. The most salient example being the "You talk like you're white" statements often delivered as a compliment. I think, as I stated above, building a pipeline is the most important thing. Not simply using demographics as a yardstick and removing the percentage of Asians above a line. Also if we use a yardstick it should be family income or the median income in districts to capture people who are disadvantaged. This will have the affect of boosting disenfranchised populations like hispanics and blacks while capturing other races and segments who are also disadvantaged. While I think hiring bias exists it is likely fading. The nice affect of promoting more education and skill at lower levels is that we will create more opportunities for nontraditional segments to start companies and set their own cultures. Many people in the industry have instead focused on education instead of directly building companies because they feel a sense of need to help people overcome the hurdles it takes to become skilled (economic, demographic, cultural, etc). I look forward to when they don't have to do that because mechanisms will be in place to serve these underserved places and people, and those entrepreneurs and engineers can get back to engineering.