4 ms·

From Wikipedia: On 20 January 2009 Adobe announced it will publish the RTMP specification. On 21 May 2009 Adobe filed a DMCA removal request on a Sourc

by madars 17y ago

From Wikipedia: On 20 January 2009 Adobe announced it will publish the RTMP specification. On 21 May 2009 Adobe filed a DMCA removal request on a Sourceforge-hosted implementation of the protocol. And now we are about to believe that: The Flash file format (SWF) specifications are open and unrestricted, so any company - even Apple - can build their own Flash Player if they want. Also freely available are related specifications for the Flash ecosystem: RTMP FLV/F4V, AMF, and MCD.

Flow 17y ago
Post this info in a reply on that blog entry plz. Or maybe you did, but their "Open at Adobe" moderator didn't approve it.:)
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- pingswept 17y ago
  I've just submitted this comment (we'll see if it gets posted): -- Hello Mr. McAllister, I'm glad to hear that Adobe has opened as much as they have. That's the right direction; I'm glad you're doing it. I'm a little concerned about your claim that anyone can implement SWF, RTMP, and so forth. Didn't Adobe issue a DMCA takedown when someone implemented RTMP? Here's a copy of what appears to be the takedown notice: http://www.chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/notice.cgi?NoticeID=25159 http://www.chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/notice.cgi?... I recognize that that the takedown notice says it was issued because the implementation "can be used to download copyrighted works," not because it's an implementation of RTMP. That's a silly argument-- every web browser that uses a Flash player downloads content before it plays it. How could one implement RTMP, the "Real-Time Messaging Protocol" without sending any messages? I'm willing to believe that there might be some misunderstanding here-- maybe there are two parts to the RTMP spec, and only one is open, or something like that. But at the outset, I can't reconcile what you've written with the rest of the evidence that I see. Perhaps you could explain what I'm missing?
  - swombat 17y ago
    Utterly uber-lame that no comments get posted on an article about how Adobe is being open. Open my arse.
    - pingswept 17y ago
      Well, it is Sunday morning. I'm not checking for comments on my work blog either.
    - pingswept 17y ago
      I now agree. Judging by his Twitter account, Dave McAllister has been awake for at least 3 hours this fine Monday morning. My comment does not appear on his blog yet. I just tweeted at him. Maybe it's caught in a spam trap or something.
  - x_entrik 17y ago
    Highly doubtful if Adobe will ever come out with a clear answer, meanwhile - wanted to point you to this comment exchange on another Adobe blog: http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/01/sympathy_for_the_devil.html#comment-2135364 http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/01/sympathy_for_the_devil.... Quote: Your comment is extremely interesting because it seems to be the first time Adobe has publicly acknowledged that the real reason for that DMCA takedown was the encryption scheme NOT *potential* copyright infringement. Meaning that Adobe deliberately mis-used the DMCA and mis-led the entire community about the real reasons for the takedown right?
    - pingswept 17y ago
      Thanks for that. It seems like Adobe could actually refute the accusation pretty well if they wanted to. My impression from the exchange you link to is that Mr. Nack (the Adobe guy) has a point, but I can't say that I understand it, since he's only written a couple of sentences. It looks to me like some of the folks at Adobe are genuinely trying to be open, but others aren't, so it looks like the genuine folks are lying, since you can't tell who's really doing what. It's weird, because I don't see how Flash could possibly win in the long term without becoming completely open. (I do think a non-open option can win, but it doesn't look like it will be Flash.)
dirtbox 17y ago
They really are beginning to sound like a whining child trying desperately to get it's own way now, and all because Apple doesn't want anything interfering with their app store cash cow.
agazso 17y ago
While it's true that since then Adobe published the RTMP specification, but they left out the description of the handshake procedure, without it cannot be called full and open. What's more they are constantly changing the handshake procedure in every point release. I wouldn't call that open either.
- icefox 17y ago
  Is there a good link on more information about this?
  - agazso 17y ago
    Here is a thread from the Red5 mailinglist: http://osflash.org/pipermail/red5_osflash.org/2009-August/035378.html http://osflash.org/pipermail/red5_osflash.org/2009-August/03... The main issue is that the spec says (5.4, page 10) that in C2 and S2 messages you send random bytes. If you do that only VP6 streaming will work but H.264 won't. You have to do a HMAC like digest on the "random bytes" and send it back so that H.264 works. Of course all of this was reverse-engineered before the spec was released, but later with the release of Player version 10.0.32.18 it stopped working. So it had to be reverse-engineered again. About that time I stopped working on a Flash Media Server (fortunately), so I just heard from my ex-colleagues that Adobe changed the handshake again with a new Player version. EDIT: changed the link to a better one.
kd5bjo 17y ago
Most people that are using RTMP are using it to serve static files that they want to make harder to copy than downloading an FLV file. As I recall, the problem with rtmpdump wasn't that it implemented RTMP, but that it included ways to bypass the "security measures" that are built-in to RTMP. It was able to spoof all of the parameters that FMS uses to determine whether or not it should serve a stream, and would save a copy of the video to disk instead of just displaying it to the user.
- please 17y ago
  sounds perfectly fine to do if the spec is actually open.

by madars 17y ago

Flow 17y ago

Post this info in a reply on that blog entry plz. Or maybe you did, but their "Open at Adobe" moderator didn't approve it.:)

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
pingswept 17y ago
I've just submitted this comment (we'll see if it gets posted): -- Hello Mr. McAllister, I'm glad to hear that Adobe has opened as much as they have. That's the right direction; I'm glad you're doing it. I'm a little concerned about your claim that anyone can implement SWF, RTMP, and so forth. Didn't Adobe issue a DMCA takedown when someone implemented RTMP? Here's a copy of what appears to be the takedown notice: http://www.chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/notice.cgi?NoticeID=25159 http://www.chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/notice.cgi?... I recognize that that the takedown notice says it was issued because the implementation "can be used to download copyrighted works," not because it's an implementation of RTMP. That's a silly argument-- every web browser that uses a Flash player downloads content before it plays it. How could one implement RTMP, the "Real-Time Messaging Protocol" without sending any messages? I'm willing to believe that there might be some misunderstanding here-- maybe there are two parts to the RTMP spec, and only one is open, or something like that. But at the outset, I can't reconcile what you've written with the rest of the evidence that I see. Perhaps you could explain what I'm missing?
- swombat 17y ago
  Utterly uber-lame that no comments get posted on an article about how Adobe is being open. Open my arse.
  - pingswept 17y ago
    Well, it is Sunday morning. I'm not checking for comments on my work blog either.
  - pingswept 17y ago
    I now agree. Judging by his Twitter account, Dave McAllister has been awake for at least 3 hours this fine Monday morning. My comment does not appear on his blog yet. I just tweeted at him. Maybe it's caught in a spam trap or something.
- x_entrik 17y ago
  Highly doubtful if Adobe will ever come out with a clear answer, meanwhile - wanted to point you to this comment exchange on another Adobe blog: http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/01/sympathy_for_the_devil.html#comment-2135364 http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/01/sympathy_for_the_devil.... Quote: Your comment is extremely interesting because it seems to be the first time Adobe has publicly acknowledged that the real reason for that DMCA takedown was the encryption scheme NOT *potential* copyright infringement. Meaning that Adobe deliberately mis-used the DMCA and mis-led the entire community about the real reasons for the takedown right?
  - pingswept 17y ago
    Thanks for that. It seems like Adobe could actually refute the accusation pretty well if they wanted to. My impression from the exchange you link to is that Mr. Nack (the Adobe guy) has a point, but I can't say that I understand it, since he's only written a couple of sentences. It looks to me like some of the folks at Adobe are genuinely trying to be open, but others aren't, so it looks like the genuine folks are lying, since you can't tell who's really doing what. It's weird, because I don't see how Flash could possibly win in the long term without becoming completely open. (I do think a non-open option can win, but it doesn't look like it will be Flash.)

dirtbox 17y ago

They really are beginning to sound like a whining child trying desperately to get it's own way now, and all because Apple doesn't want anything interfering with their app store cash cow.

agazso 17y ago

While it's true that since then Adobe published the RTMP specification, but they left out the description of the handshake procedure, without it cannot be called full and open. What's more they are constantly changing the handshake procedure in every point release. I wouldn't call that open either.

icefox 17y ago
Is there a good link on more information about this?
- agazso 17y ago
  Here is a thread from the Red5 mailinglist: http://osflash.org/pipermail/red5_osflash.org/2009-August/035378.html http://osflash.org/pipermail/red5_osflash.org/2009-August/03... The main issue is that the spec says (5.4, page 10) that in C2 and S2 messages you send random bytes. If you do that only VP6 streaming will work but H.264 won't. You have to do a HMAC like digest on the "random bytes" and send it back so that H.264 works. Of course all of this was reverse-engineered before the spec was released, but later with the release of Player version 10.0.32.18 it stopped working. So it had to be reverse-engineered again. About that time I stopped working on a Flash Media Server (fortunately), so I just heard from my ex-colleagues that Adobe changed the handshake again with a new Player version. EDIT: changed the link to a better one.

kd5bjo 17y ago

Most people that are using RTMP are using it to serve static files that they want to make harder to copy than downloading an FLV file. As I recall, the problem with rtmpdump wasn't that it implemented RTMP, but that it included ways to bypass the "security measures" that are built-in to RTMP. It was able to spoof all of the parameters that FMS uses to determine whether or not it should serve a stream, and would save a copy of the video to disk instead of just displaying it to the user.

please 17y ago
sounds perfectly fine to do if the spec is actually open.