5 ms·

Wim Hoff [1] is a great example of someone who can turn a lot of the knobs on his metabolism that aren't available to most of us. Apparently, he says it's some

Wim Hoff [1] is a great example of someone who can turn a lot of the knobs on his metabolism that aren't available to most of us. Apparently, he says it's something you can learn to do. If these researchers got more concrete about how patients can learn to do this and to get physiologically measurable effects, it would actually certainly lower health care costs. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof

iamcurious 11y ago
Interesting. There has been at least one study about him and his techniques: Healthy volunteers practicing the learned techniques exhibited profound increases in the release of epinephrine, which in turn led to increased production of anti-inflammatory mediators and subsequent dampening of the proinflammatory cytokine response elicited by intravenous administration of bacterial endotoxin. This study could have important implications for the treatment of a variety of conditions associated with excessive or persistent inflammation, especially autoimmune diseases in which therapies that antagonize proinflammatory cytokines have shown great benefit. Full paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.abstract http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.abstract
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  It was a bit discussed here two week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10964515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10964515 in [“Power pose” research is the latest example of scientific overreach](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10961131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10961131) > Thanks HN for making a graduated psychology student more critical. When I was studying psychology at uni I had no help from peers in being critical with regards to psychology. It's a lot harder being critical when no one really challenges your thoughts on the subject. > Now on to a method that does invoke "neuroendocrine and behavioral changes". The Wim Hof Method, it takes about 10 minutes to do to feel a strong effect IMO. Don't want to hijack the topic but I thought it was a fitting counter example :) > The results are also not barely statistical significant, it's more like 5 deviations away from the norm with regards to their main RQ. > Paper is here: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.full http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.full > Claims about behavioral changes are mine (and I'm just a guy on the web who takes cold showers every day), the research team focused on immune response. But as you can see in their charts about the adrenaline boost one gets, behavioral change occurs in my experience at least.
  - mettamage 11y ago
    I still stand by those statements :)
- lukev 11y ago
  If I read the methods correctly, then how does this fall into the category of "learned behavior"? Exposing the body to these temperature extremes, which are far outside the norms most of us experience and which must induce borderline hypothermia, surely has its own physiological effect. I don't doubt the effect can be beneficial, but that seems squarely in the camp of physical treatment as opposed to "thinking" yourself into a different bodily state.
  - horsecaptin 11y ago
    I think perhaps people look at Wim Hof and think, "ok so I have to go swimming in a lake of snow to make this work. Cold showers are pretty awesome - you'll need all of your will-power to get into one, after a minute or two of discomfort your body will adjust -- especially if you think warm thoughts. And you'll come out feeling great!
  - mettamage 11y ago
    To avoid confusion read my answer on cognitive science stack exchange. While it is just an opinion, it is quite an informed one. I participated in the study above. Our final challenge was walking on a ski mountain for 2.5 hours -7 degrees celsius with shorts and shoes. You could bring a hat for style points (I did :) ) but no shirt. Once in a lifetime experience: hugging people in ski-suits who were on vacation while I was dressed like I'd go to a summer pool party. http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof-really-consciously-control-his-autonomic-nervous-systemx http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof... I agree with you on the idea it's not classical conditioning. The WHM has 3 components: cold exposure, breathing technique and the right mindset (mindset is akin to optimism but it is more stereotypical game-shaman like, e.g. "the cold is your friend."). IMO the breathing technique produces the biggest effect, then cold exposure itself and the mindset acts like an amplification of what you learned. In my subjective experience I'd ratio the effects as 41/39/20 (breathing,exposure,mindset).
    - iamcurious 11y ago
      Impressive. Can you point to some references regarding the breathing technique?
- deleted 11y ago
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lettergram 11y ago
That's actually the basis for my teams startup: http://synaptitude.me/ http://synaptitude.me/ We provide EEG feedback so users can learn how to turn off/on portions of their brains in particular ways. It's actually used pretty regularly to teach people how to recognize when an epileptic seizure is about to occur. It's also used to improve symptoms PTSD, ADHD, etc.
- deleted 11y ago
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- deleted 11y ago
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mettamage 11y ago
I disagree. The research on Wim Hof is only known what it will do to healthy individuals for about a day. While the long-term effects can be speculated about that is all it is from a scientific standpoint. I myself am quite strict about it since there's a lot of danger to go too occult on his method which in my experience is not helpful (I believed in a lot of occult stuff as a kid, got me in trouble a lot since the predictions were not always accurate). Of course, feel free to use the technique. I don't think the technique is harmful -- but also that has not been tested well enough, but one can infer from similar responses w.r.t. exercise. I do and it seems to help when I have a headache as a pain killer. But I use it mostly to feel happy regardless the weather and to feel like a boss and a caveman (under a cold shower), kind of like a drug five minutes per day :) "If these researchers got more concrete about how patients can learn to do this" Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, are you talking about the WHM, you can learn his method (next paragraph is an affiliate + Skype offer from my side). If you're talking about the researchers of the article, it's just classical conditioning. The procedure is very well known. About learning WHM, like I said: can learn his method. He has an online course. You can find it here http://dealguardian.net/product/831/?hop=00melo00&trackingID1=HN http://dealguardian.net/product/831/?hop=00melo00&trackingID... I have to disclaim it is an affiliate link. I've been teaching the WHM to my friends as a birthday gift and one of them told me I should make money from it. His (paraphrased) words were: "you were in his most important experiment and trained with him for 4 days that shows that you can learn this stuff. You have credibility from that." If HNers are interested in the course let me know. I'm making 20% ($40) for each sale and I'm willing to provide 30 to 60 minutes of Skype support (depends on my schedule / study). The reason I signed up to be an affiliate is because I believe in his method. I didn't do the online course myself, I only know some capable video/web-dev guys edited it with him. I'll also be the first to say that you should take a real course, because in my experience you can get a lot more out of it when someone is physically present. Especially in The Netherlands, there are quite a few trainers who learned his method. When I trained with him in the experiment I passed out a couple of times, so I was happy that someone was physically present (especially the doctors from The Radboud University with oxygen tanks if things got really bad, it never did fortunately). While this may sound dangerous, remember that we needed to train as hard as we could and there were no real medical risks IMO (note: I'm not a health professional, I'm a CS and graduated psy. student). On another note, I read half of this article and while I want to know more about it, the WHM is not like this at all. I know that no one said this but I want to make it clear, because I'm noticing some people might read into it like that. What Wim Hof does is not classical conditioning, what he basically teaches is how to produce a stress response that suppresses the immune system indirectly (and give adrenaline and make you feel like a caveman ;) ). He formulates it perhaps a bit differently though but I always listened to the doctors during the experiment when we were talking about physiology. If you want to know more about the WHM check out my stack exchange answer about it. It's the answer I would've wanted to read before I did his experiment. http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof-really-consciously-control-his-autonomic-nervous-system http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof... I hope this helped.
fractallyte 11y ago
I watched a video of this guy wowing some 'scientists', and was not impressed. His arms were folded in front, close to his chest. That helped tremendously to maintain core temperature, even with ice surrounding the rest of his body. In a way, it was cheating; but no one had the temerity to point that out...

iamcurious 11y ago

Interesting. There has been at least one study about him and his techniques: Healthy volunteers practicing the learned techniques exhibited profound increases in the release of epinephrine, which in turn led to increased production of anti-inflammatory mediators and subsequent dampening of the proinflammatory cytokine response elicited by intravenous administration of bacterial endotoxin. This study could have important implications for the treatment of a variety of conditions associated with excessive or persistent inflammation, especially autoimmune diseases in which therapies that antagonize proinflammatory cytokines have shown great benefit. Full paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.abstract http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.abstract

johnchristopher 11y ago
It was a bit discussed here two week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10964515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10964515 in [“Power pose” research is the latest example of scientific overreach](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10961131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10961131) > Thanks HN for making a graduated psychology student more critical. When I was studying psychology at uni I had no help from peers in being critical with regards to psychology. It's a lot harder being critical when no one really challenges your thoughts on the subject. > Now on to a method that does invoke "neuroendocrine and behavioral changes". The Wim Hof Method, it takes about 10 minutes to do to feel a strong effect IMO. Don't want to hijack the topic but I thought it was a fitting counter example :) > The results are also not barely statistical significant, it's more like 5 deviations away from the norm with regards to their main RQ. > Paper is here: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.full http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.full > Claims about behavioral changes are mine (and I'm just a guy on the web who takes cold showers every day), the research team focused on immune response. But as you can see in their charts about the adrenaline boost one gets, behavioral change occurs in my experience at least.
- mettamage 11y ago
  I still stand by those statements :)
lukev 11y ago
If I read the methods correctly, then how does this fall into the category of "learned behavior"? Exposing the body to these temperature extremes, which are far outside the norms most of us experience and which must induce borderline hypothermia, surely has its own physiological effect. I don't doubt the effect can be beneficial, but that seems squarely in the camp of physical treatment as opposed to "thinking" yourself into a different bodily state.
- horsecaptin 11y ago
  I think perhaps people look at Wim Hof and think, "ok so I have to go swimming in a lake of snow to make this work. Cold showers are pretty awesome - you'll need all of your will-power to get into one, after a minute or two of discomfort your body will adjust -- especially if you think warm thoughts. And you'll come out feeling great!
- mettamage 11y ago
  To avoid confusion read my answer on cognitive science stack exchange. While it is just an opinion, it is quite an informed one. I participated in the study above. Our final challenge was walking on a ski mountain for 2.5 hours -7 degrees celsius with shorts and shoes. You could bring a hat for style points (I did :) ) but no shirt. Once in a lifetime experience: hugging people in ski-suits who were on vacation while I was dressed like I'd go to a summer pool party. http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof-really-consciously-control-his-autonomic-nervous-systemx http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof... I agree with you on the idea it's not classical conditioning. The WHM has 3 components: cold exposure, breathing technique and the right mindset (mindset is akin to optimism but it is more stereotypical game-shaman like, e.g. "the cold is your friend."). IMO the breathing technique produces the biggest effect, then cold exposure itself and the mindset acts like an amplification of what you learned. In my subjective experience I'd ratio the effects as 41/39/20 (breathing,exposure,mindset).
  - iamcurious 11y ago
    Impressive. Can you point to some references regarding the breathing technique?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

lettergram 11y ago

That's actually the basis for my teams startup: http://synaptitude.me/ http://synaptitude.me/ We provide EEG feedback so users can learn how to turn off/on portions of their brains in particular ways. It's actually used pretty regularly to teach people how to recognize when an epileptic seizure is about to occur. It's also used to improve symptoms PTSD, ADHD, etc.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

mettamage 11y ago

I disagree. The research on Wim Hof is only known what it will do to healthy individuals for about a day. While the long-term effects can be speculated about that is all it is from a scientific standpoint. I myself am quite strict about it since there's a lot of danger to go too occult on his method which in my experience is not helpful (I believed in a lot of occult stuff as a kid, got me in trouble a lot since the predictions were not always accurate). Of course, feel free to use the technique. I don't think the technique is harmful -- but also that has not been tested well enough, but one can infer from similar responses w.r.t. exercise. I do and it seems to help when I have a headache as a pain killer. But I use it mostly to feel happy regardless the weather and to feel like a boss and a caveman (under a cold shower), kind of like a drug five minutes per day :) "If these researchers got more concrete about how patients can learn to do this" Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, are you talking about the WHM, you can learn his method (next paragraph is an affiliate + Skype offer from my side). If you're talking about the researchers of the article, it's just classical conditioning. The procedure is very well known. About learning WHM, like I said: can learn his method. He has an online course. You can find it here http://dealguardian.net/product/831/?hop=00melo00&trackingID1=HN http://dealguardian.net/product/831/?hop=00melo00&trackingID... I have to disclaim it is an affiliate link. I've been teaching the WHM to my friends as a birthday gift and one of them told me I should make money from it. His (paraphrased) words were: "you were in his most important experiment and trained with him for 4 days that shows that you can learn this stuff. You have credibility from that." If HNers are interested in the course let me know. I'm making 20% ($40) for each sale and I'm willing to provide 30 to 60 minutes of Skype support (depends on my schedule / study). The reason I signed up to be an affiliate is because I believe in his method. I didn't do the online course myself, I only know some capable video/web-dev guys edited it with him. I'll also be the first to say that you should take a real course, because in my experience you can get a lot more out of it when someone is physically present. Especially in The Netherlands, there are quite a few trainers who learned his method. When I trained with him in the experiment I passed out a couple of times, so I was happy that someone was physically present (especially the doctors from The Radboud University with oxygen tanks if things got really bad, it never did fortunately). While this may sound dangerous, remember that we needed to train as hard as we could and there were no real medical risks IMO (note: I'm not a health professional, I'm a CS and graduated psy. student). On another note, I read half of this article and while I want to know more about it, the WHM is not like this at all. I know that no one said this but I want to make it clear, because I'm noticing some people might read into it like that. What Wim Hof does is not classical conditioning, what he basically teaches is how to produce a stress response that suppresses the immune system indirectly (and give adrenaline and make you feel like a caveman ;) ). He formulates it perhaps a bit differently though but I always listened to the doctors during the experiment when we were talking about physiology. If you want to know more about the WHM check out my stack exchange answer about it. It's the answer I would've wanted to read before I did his experiment. http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof-really-consciously-control-his-autonomic-nervous-system http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof... I hope this helped.

fractallyte 11y ago

I watched a video of this guy wowing some 'scientists', and was not impressed. His arms were folded in front, close to his chest. That helped tremendously to maintain core temperature, even with ice surrounding the rest of his body. In a way, it was cheating; but no one had the temerity to point that out...