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> Ever go to a gym and ask someone how to do a basic lift only to be scoffed at? Ever been to a foreign country and have someone berate you for not understandin

> Ever go to a gym and ask someone how to do a basic lift only to be scoffed at? Ever been to a foreign country and have someone berate you for not understanding how to navigate through some strange process or not knowing how to speak their language well enough? That's not asking, that's demanding that someone teach you. Its a brazen form of entitlement that completely disregards the state of the other person. In regards to the gym, I don't go to the gym to wait around to randomly help some other person with their lifting techniques. I squeeze in going to the gym before or after work, to try to get in my exercise before I get home, so I don't die at 40. Don't be a dick and expect me to drop everything I'm doing because you don't know what you are doing. I am, literally, not here to help you. If you really want somebody who is waiting around to help you, then your in luck: They are called personal trainers, and you can pay them to help you! If you don't have the money do that, then (god-forbid) you google it or get a book from the library and make a best effort on your own before getting pissy at me because I have other priorities than to make your life easier/less emotionally distressing.

milkytron 11y ago
I think the point he was trying to make was don't be a dick. You can deny someone a gym lesson if you don't have time, they shouldn't be too upset about that. Or at least point them in the right direction. And I think it's a lot easier to be a dick online, which is why programming in particular has a lot of these situations.
- carussell 11y ago
  > And I think it's a lot easier to be a dick online, which is why programming in particular has a lot of these situations. I think it's a lot easier to be perceived as a dick online, too, and that probably accounts for something like an equal share of the frustration that people walk away with.
padseeker 11y ago
On one hand the going to the gym example is not a perfect analogy - the gym is a public place, and being accosted by some random person asking for help could be off-putting. Someone posting on stack overflow is not directed at anyone and is like a classified ad, it's not directed at you. You can easily ignore it as opposed to someone walking over to you explicitly asking for help. However 2 things - #1 the bile you have for those asking for help is off-putting. #2 It takes more effort for someone to respond to a question and tell them off than it does to ignore it. And some of us in the programmer community would rather take the time to make a derogatory comment instead of either ignoring the comment or actually helping that person. THAT is the sign of a bully.
- mindcrime 11y ago
  On one hand the going to the gym example is not a perfect analogy - the gym is a public place, and being accosted by some random person asking for help could be off-putting. Except the culture of gyms, at least among most people to spend a lot of times at gyms and take fitness seriously, is to be helpful and charitable to others. Almost everybody I know who does any weight-lifting or anything related is always more than happy to help a n00b out if they have time. Refusing to help someone if you're literally too busy is one thing. But a blanket attitude of "I'm not here to help you, ever, under any circumstances" is a pretty dick'ish position by the standards of many gym regulars. Of course it's your right to refuse anybody you want...
  - padseeker 11y ago
    I do go to the gym, but I'm no expert. I was not aware of this. Thank you for posting this. I guess what I was trying to say is if you were in the middle of a set and someone asked you for help I would be more understanding to the person being asked if they were annoyed about being bothered. On the other hand you have to go out of your way to be an asshole on stack overflow, and yet it happens all the time. No one is demanding your attention or interrupting your code time to respond to a post on SO, and yet so many know it alls cannot help themselves by taking a swipe at the person posting a question. I just hate that attitude. Maybe I should spend more time reading questions on SO and posting helpful responses.
    - mindcrime 11y ago
      I guess what I was trying to say is if you were in the middle of a set and someone asked you for help I would be more understanding to the person being asked if they were annoyed about being bothered. Fair enough. There is an etiquette to things at the gym as well, and it may take a while to pick up on some of that stuff. Which is, I guess, the same as the Internet in some ways.
- 32bitkid 11y ago
  After years of teaching and mentoring, I love helping those "asking for help". See my stackoverflow profile if you want. However, also after years of teaching, I am very abrasive to those "demanding assistance". I find that subtly is often drained out of conversations regarding the responsibility of the teacher and the consideration of the learner. "Can you help me understand why this doesnt work?" ...is very different from... "It looks like you know what you are doing, fix this for me." ..even though the outcomes are often very similar.
SilasX 11y ago
Per padseeker's sibling comment, asking random strangers for help at a gym is not an analogy because there's no social expectation that you'll be asked for help or that you'll provide such help just by going to the gym, whereas forums are places where you're expected to ask for help. The relevant comparison would be to the gym's front desk. So, extending the metaphor: 1) Yes, it would be offputting if you asked them about lifts there and they just scoffed. 2) Yes, I have asked for help like this before ("where's the first aid kit, I'm bleeding?") and had that treatment, and it sucked. 3) But being pointed to the appropriate resource is a very reasonable response, and it's analogous to (a precise variant of) RTFM. It would be like: "How do I lift?" -> "Oh, ask one of the people in red shirts." "What are the rules?" -> "Oh, it's on that sign over there." Not much different from: "How do I make a website?" -> "start from this link" "How do I make my DB queries faster?" -> "search for database index"

milkytron 11y ago

I think the point he was trying to make was don't be a dick. You can deny someone a gym lesson if you don't have time, they shouldn't be too upset about that. Or at least point them in the right direction. And I think it's a lot easier to be a dick online, which is why programming in particular has a lot of these situations.

carussell 11y ago
> And I think it's a lot easier to be a dick online, which is why programming in particular has a lot of these situations. I think it's a lot easier to be perceived as a dick online, too, and that probably accounts for something like an equal share of the frustration that people walk away with.

padseeker 11y ago

On one hand the going to the gym example is not a perfect analogy - the gym is a public place, and being accosted by some random person asking for help could be off-putting. Someone posting on stack overflow is not directed at anyone and is like a classified ad, it's not directed at you. You can easily ignore it as opposed to someone walking over to you explicitly asking for help. However 2 things - #1 the bile you have for those asking for help is off-putting. #2 It takes more effort for someone to respond to a question and tell them off than it does to ignore it. And some of us in the programmer community would rather take the time to make a derogatory comment instead of either ignoring the comment or actually helping that person. THAT is the sign of a bully.

mindcrime 11y ago
On one hand the going to the gym example is not a perfect analogy - the gym is a public place, and being accosted by some random person asking for help could be off-putting. Except the culture of gyms, at least among most people to spend a lot of times at gyms and take fitness seriously, is to be helpful and charitable to others. Almost everybody I know who does any weight-lifting or anything related is always more than happy to help a n00b out if they have time. Refusing to help someone if you're literally too busy is one thing. But a blanket attitude of "I'm not here to help you, ever, under any circumstances" is a pretty dick'ish position by the standards of many gym regulars. Of course it's your right to refuse anybody you want...
- padseeker 11y ago
  I do go to the gym, but I'm no expert. I was not aware of this. Thank you for posting this. I guess what I was trying to say is if you were in the middle of a set and someone asked you for help I would be more understanding to the person being asked if they were annoyed about being bothered. On the other hand you have to go out of your way to be an asshole on stack overflow, and yet it happens all the time. No one is demanding your attention or interrupting your code time to respond to a post on SO, and yet so many know it alls cannot help themselves by taking a swipe at the person posting a question. I just hate that attitude. Maybe I should spend more time reading questions on SO and posting helpful responses.
  - mindcrime 11y ago
    I guess what I was trying to say is if you were in the middle of a set and someone asked you for help I would be more understanding to the person being asked if they were annoyed about being bothered. Fair enough. There is an etiquette to things at the gym as well, and it may take a while to pick up on some of that stuff. Which is, I guess, the same as the Internet in some ways.
32bitkid 11y ago
After years of teaching and mentoring, I love helping those "asking for help". See my stackoverflow profile if you want. However, also after years of teaching, I am very abrasive to those "demanding assistance". I find that subtly is often drained out of conversations regarding the responsibility of the teacher and the consideration of the learner. "Can you help me understand why this doesnt work?" ...is very different from... "It looks like you know what you are doing, fix this for me." ..even though the outcomes are often very similar.

SilasX 11y ago

Per padseeker's sibling comment, asking random strangers for help at a gym is not an analogy because there's no social expectation that you'll be asked for help or that you'll provide such help just by going to the gym, whereas forums are places where you're expected to ask for help. The relevant comparison would be to the gym's front desk. So, extending the metaphor: 1) Yes, it would be offputting if you asked them about lifts there and they just scoffed. 2) Yes, I have asked for help like this before ("where's the first aid kit, I'm bleeding?") and had that treatment, and it sucked. 3) But being pointed to the appropriate resource is a very reasonable response, and it's analogous to (a precise variant of) RTFM. It would be like: "How do I lift?" -> "Oh, ask one of the people in red shirts." "What are the rules?" -> "Oh, it's on that sign over there." Not much different from: "How do I make a website?" -> "start from this link" "How do I make my DB queries faster?" -> "search for database index"