5 ms·

I guess I'm going to be the asshole today : If someone lets a few rough edges on SO dissuade them from learning, they probably didn't care for any of this to b

by doktrin 11y ago

I guess I'm going to be the asshole today : If someone lets a few rough edges on SO dissuade them from learning, they probably didn't care for any of this to begin with. I mean, every single one of these traumatized "beginner" comments were sourced from reddit - where there are at least a half dozen subs that would gladly accommodate questions unsuitable for SO. On a related note, I also don't understand why there is a constant push to coddle beginners to increasingly absurd degrees. It has literally never been easier to learn to program. There are hundreds of resources available to the aspiring learner - more so than any other field I'm aware of. Yet somehow the anal retentiveness of SO is the problem here? Come on.

blueatlas 11y ago
"I also don't understand why there is a constant push to coddle beginners to increasingly absurd degrees." Apply this perspective beyond software development. Law, medicine, firemen, teaching a kid to play baseball. Why do we continually look at software development different than other acquired skills? To answer your question directly, it is my opinion that the layers of abstraction that we have today, and that continue to grow, put those new to software and computer science at a huge disadvantage. They have a very long haul. And yet, demand increases for these skills. Yes, we should coddle to the best of our ability.
- doktrin 11y ago
  > Apply this perspective beyond software development. Law, medicine, firemen, teaching a kid to play baseball. Why do we continually look at software development different than other acquired skills? Well, that's a good question. What do you think it takes to break into law, medicine or fire safety? I can assure you that being willing to put in significant work, and tolerating adversity, is a hard requirement for each of them. Much of my family is in medicine, and I used to work in law - both professions are absolutely merciless in comparison to engineering. The expectation that would-be [doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc] put in the work is unwavering, and the professionals in those fields can be huge dickheads to boot. Yet, they somehow manage to attract more than their share of candidates.
  - tcfunk 11y ago
    While too much coddling is probably not helpful, neither is being overly abrasive because "back in my day that's how we learned it". Holding on to old teaching methods "just because" isn't the right answer, nor will it help the programming profession in the long run.
    - doktrin 11y ago
      Are you addressing me, or just speaking in generalities? Teaching and pedagogy is a broad topic, and there are certainly things that can be done to improve most existing models. However, a willingness to tolerate some modest level of adversity will remain necessary.
Xcelerate 11y ago
> If someone lets a few rough edges on SO dissuade them from learning, they probably didn't care for any of this to begin with. Or perhaps people have different levels of emotional sensitivity (for environmental or genetic reasons). I detest conflict and go to extremes to avoid it; thus I try to stay away from situations that entail a lot of negative interpersonal interaction. If I was just now learning to program, an abrasive comment on SO would not turn me off to programming, but it would make me dislike certain types of people more, and in the future I would steer clear of that particular website.
- doktrin 11y ago
  > If I was just now learning to program, an abrasive comment on SO would not turn me off to programming, but it would make me dislike certain types of people more, and in the future I would steer clear of that particular website. This actually describes me fairly well. I began seriously pursuing programming as both a hobby and profession about 6 years ago. I was turned off by SO's somewhat prickly community, and to this day only use it as a search engine. That's just it, though : SO is just SO. As valuable as it is, it's still only one resource among many. That was true then, and is even more true now. What your comment helped me internalize was that one of my principle objections with the OP is that the scope is overly broad. It's not so much about "beginners vs professionals" as it is about "Stack Overflow vs the uninitiated". It's perfectly legitimate to write about how to correctly ask questions on SO, but framing it as some sort of macro issue concerning the programming community at large feels wrong headed to me.

by doktrin 11y ago

blueatlas 11y ago

"I also don't understand why there is a constant push to coddle beginners to increasingly absurd degrees." Apply this perspective beyond software development. Law, medicine, firemen, teaching a kid to play baseball. Why do we continually look at software development different than other acquired skills? To answer your question directly, it is my opinion that the layers of abstraction that we have today, and that continue to grow, put those new to software and computer science at a huge disadvantage. They have a very long haul. And yet, demand increases for these skills. Yes, we should coddle to the best of our ability.

doktrin 11y ago
> Apply this perspective beyond software development. Law, medicine, firemen, teaching a kid to play baseball. Why do we continually look at software development different than other acquired skills? Well, that's a good question. What do you think it takes to break into law, medicine or fire safety? I can assure you that being willing to put in significant work, and tolerating adversity, is a hard requirement for each of them. Much of my family is in medicine, and I used to work in law - both professions are absolutely merciless in comparison to engineering. The expectation that would-be [doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc] put in the work is unwavering, and the professionals in those fields can be huge dickheads to boot. Yet, they somehow manage to attract more than their share of candidates.
- tcfunk 11y ago
  While too much coddling is probably not helpful, neither is being overly abrasive because "back in my day that's how we learned it". Holding on to old teaching methods "just because" isn't the right answer, nor will it help the programming profession in the long run.
  - doktrin 11y ago
    Are you addressing me, or just speaking in generalities? Teaching and pedagogy is a broad topic, and there are certainly things that can be done to improve most existing models. However, a willingness to tolerate some modest level of adversity will remain necessary.

Xcelerate 11y ago

> If someone lets a few rough edges on SO dissuade them from learning, they probably didn't care for any of this to begin with. Or perhaps people have different levels of emotional sensitivity (for environmental or genetic reasons). I detest conflict and go to extremes to avoid it; thus I try to stay away from situations that entail a lot of negative interpersonal interaction. If I was just now learning to program, an abrasive comment on SO would not turn me off to programming, but it would make me dislike certain types of people more, and in the future I would steer clear of that particular website.

doktrin 11y ago
> If I was just now learning to program, an abrasive comment on SO would not turn me off to programming, but it would make me dislike certain types of people more, and in the future I would steer clear of that particular website. This actually describes me fairly well. I began seriously pursuing programming as both a hobby and profession about 6 years ago. I was turned off by SO's somewhat prickly community, and to this day only use it as a search engine. That's just it, though : SO is just SO. As valuable as it is, it's still only one resource among many. That was true then, and is even more true now. What your comment helped me internalize was that one of my principle objections with the OP is that the scope is overly broad. It's not so much about "beginners vs professionals" as it is about "Stack Overflow vs the uninitiated". It's perfectly legitimate to write about how to correctly ask questions on SO, but framing it as some sort of macro issue concerning the programming community at large feels wrong headed to me.